Women's Money Wisdom

Episode 300: How To Get More Done by Doing Less (Yes, Really) with Dr. Natalie Nixon

• Melissa Joy, CFP® • Season 4 • Episode 300

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Creativity isn’t just inspiration — it’s a practical tool for better work, clearer thinking, and a more sustainable career. For our 300th episode, Melissa Joy, CFP®, sits down with Dr. Natalie Nixon, CEO of Figure 8 Thinking and author of Move, Think, Rest, to rethink productivity and build a healthier operating rhythm for the year ahead.

Natalie draws on her background in anthropology, fashion, global business, and academia to explain why traditional “always-on” productivity models no longer serve us. She introduces her Move–Think–Rest human operating system and shows how small shifts in movement, intentional thinking time, and meaningful rest can reduce burnout and unlock creativity at every level.

Together, Melissa and Natalie dig into the generational pressure many women feel to overachieve, over-deliver, and never say no — and how boundary-setting is now essential not just for wellbeing, but for strong financial planning over a lifetime.

Highlights include:

  • Why shifting from “productivity” to “cultivation” changes how we approach work
  • How the Move–Think–Rest framework helps build creativity into daily routines
  • Practical ways to incorporate movement into a busy workday
  • How mind wandering and micro-retreats improve clarity and problem-solving
  • Why rest needs to be modeled across an organization
  • The financial consequences of burnout and stepping away from the workforce too soon
  • How to set boundaries when what got you here won’t get you where you’re going
  • How to use Natalie’s 66-day challenge to build new habits for the year ahead

If you’re ready to rethink the way you work — and create more space for creativity, energy, and purpose — this milestone conversation is a powerful place to begin.



If you’re ready to rethink the way you work — and create more space for creativity, energy, and purpose — this milestone conversation is a powerful place to begin.

The previous presentation by PEARL PLANNING was intended for general information purposes only. No portion of the presentation serves as the receipt of, or as a substitute for, personalized investment advice from PEARL PLANNING or any other investment professional of your choosing. Different types of investments involve varying degrees of risk, and it should not be assumed that future performance of any specific investment or investment strategy, or any non-investment related or planning services, discussion or content, will be profitable, be suitable for your portfolio or individual situation, or prove successful. Neither PEARL PLANNING’s investment adviser registration status, nor any amount of prior experience or success, should be construed that a certain level of results or satisfaction will be achieved if PEARL PLANNING is engaged, or continues to be engaged, to provide investment advisory services. PEARL PLANNING is neither a law firm nor accounting firm, and no portion of its services should be construed as legal or accounting advice. No portion of the video content should be construed by a client or prospective client as a guarantee that he/she will experience a certain level of results if PEARL PLANNING is engaged, or continues to be engaged, to provide investment advisory services. A copy of PEARL PLANNING’s current written disclosure Brochure discussing our advisory services and fees is available upon request or at https:...

SPEAKER_02:

Welcome to the Women's Money Wisdom Podcast. I'm Melissa Joy, a certified financial planner and the founder of Pearl Planning. My goal is to help you streamline and organize your finances, navigate big money decisions with confidence, and be strategic in order to grow your wealth. As a woman, you work hard for your money, and I'm here to help you make the most of it. Now let's get into the show. Think about productivity and how to embrace creativity for a better, more fulfilling work and play life, as far as I'm concerned. Our special guest is Dr. Natalie Nixon, who is the creativity whisperer of the C-suite. She's a creative strategist and the CEO of Figure Eight Thinking, and she helps companies catalyze creativity's return on investment for inspired business results. Natalie is also the author of Move, Think, Rest. And that's a lot of what we're going to be talking about. She's an award-winning speaker, top 50 in the globe. But today we're going to get a little bit of Natalie's time to set some intentions for the new year. Natalie, welcome to the podcast. Hi, Melissa. Thank you so much for having me. Well, I'm thrilled to have you. I got the chance to see you speak at a conference I attended earlier this fall. And it really left me thinking about the way I kind of succeed at work and where I might have some opportunities to improve. So I'm so excited to relate this topic to a broader audience.

SPEAKER_00:

Me too. I appreciate that. I appreciate that feedback because that's always the goal is to help people reframe the ways that they're thinking. So so happy to hear that.

SPEAKER_02:

Well, you have a multidisciplinary background. Can you give our listener a little bit of, you know, kind of how we got here? I know you're going to have to, you know, edit and give the abridged version, but um, you know, you are the merger of creativity and leadership success. Tell me about a little bit about yourself.

SPEAKER_00:

Well, it's wonderful when all of the diverse pursuits that a person has done um converge into adding value to the work that um they do for a living. That's been that's I've been fortunate to be able to do that. I have a background in cultural anthropology. I always say that that's the gift that keeps giving because studying anthropology really equipped me with learning how to observe deeply and ask questions differently because it's always been grounded in qualitative research. I worked in the fashion industry as an entrepreneurial hat designer when I was in my 20s, living in New York City. And then I worked for a division of the limited brands in global apparel sourcing, which took me to live and work abroad in Sri Lanka and Portugal, making bras and panties for the Victoria's Secret brand. And working in the fashion industry was a stellar experience, not just in building my business acumen, but understanding the value of foresight and trends. Because in the fashion industry, you know that as soon as you launch a collection, it will be knocked off. So it really keeps you on your toes. And the fashion industry is a business where people are excellent at building consumer insight based on the role of beauty, aesthetics, and desire. And there's actually a lot that other sectors like financial services and healthcare and technology can learn about that to build consumer connection and confidence. And then I was a professor for 16 years. The first 10 years I taught the business of fashion. The last six years, I was the founding director of a strategic design MBA program, used a lot, applied a lot of design thinking and human-centered innovation. And I started my current company, Figure 8 Thinking, as a side hustle after giving a TEDx Philadelphia talk while still a professor. Woke up a year later and realized I was having more fun with my side hustle and made the leap to leave academia. And I've been building my business, Figure 8 Thinking, ever since. And what I do at Figure Eight Thinking is to help leaders and executive leadership teams connect the dots between creativity and business ROI for more sustainable and consistent innovation.

SPEAKER_02:

I love that. And I just I'm thinking about what I love about work. Actually, I was with my therapist this morning and she asked me to name the things that I value most in my job. And it really came down to creativity. It came down to things that are different every day, ways to innovate and evolve and stay modern and fresh in terms of the way we talk to people about money. Um, and you know, what an aha, what a surprise, because I don't think we think about what we love about what we do and and really keeps us energized and productive. Um, and so I was like, oh my gosh, I can't believe I get to talk to Natalie on the same day that I'm having these conversations.

SPEAKER_00:

Well, that's that's a really important place to start, right? About what is not depleting us, but what is energizing us. And if you stay attuned to that, you will likely find that it's the spaces and areas in your work and in your life where you get to be creative, where you get to do a mashup of ideas and activities that have never been put together before. And where you, as you know, Melissa, the way I like to talk about creativity is this toggling between wonder and rigor to solve problems.

SPEAKER_02:

Well, oh, that sounds intense. And so let's dig into it. You've you've gone to, you know, the the top, you know, kind of the penthouses of companies and helped leaders solve problems, learn how to develop their teams, build durability and resilience in their businesses and and make them stronger. There's certainly a business case for the work that you're doing. Um, but then you've been able to relate that and relay it to a broader audience with your book, Move, Think, Rest, which came out recently. And I think should be on people's holiday list of gifts and to be reads. Um, so tell me a little bit more about what you've discovered and what you think a broader audience needs to know and understand about their productivity and where they need to be focusing.

SPEAKER_00:

I think a big takeaway I want to leave people with around the productivity is that the ways typically thought about creativity are a bit of a relic of the first industrial revolution, where the emphasis for understandable reasons was on output, speed, efficiencies, and um uh outputs really. Um and you measure what you can see. Yeah, how many you know, cogs go past that conveyor belt, right? How many cogs go past that conveyor belt, how many widgets you can produce. The challenge is that most of us do not work in that factory outputs only environment anymore. What's interesting is that two of the main vehicles that all of us use every day on a daily basis for our work, namely email and search engines, aren't even included really in today's uh gross domestic product numbers and the GDP number. So it's not really a reflection of how we work. So, what I want people to consider is a different question about how they work. Instead of asking, how might I be more productive this week or how might my team be more productive this quarter, another question to ask is what might we cultivate this week? What might we cultivate this quarter? And the reason that shift from only thing about production to cultivation matters is because when we put on that cultivation mindset, it's a both and model. We value working solo as well as being part of a collective. We value quick spurts of growth, and we also understand and appreciate that slow is also a mechanism through which growth can happen. And finally, we understand that yes, we absolutely should measure what we see. We also understand that there's a lot taking place during dormancy when we need to sleep on it, when things need to percolate. So that both and model is the cultivation model that move think rest really embraces because of unprecedented burnout, new rules for remote work, and ubiquitous technology. And the burnout numbers are really striking. So since 2021, it's um the statistics have been hovering around 71% of American workers have reported burnout. And there is a business cost to burnout. Um, it's estimated to be about$300 billion for uh US companies. And the cost comes because of absenteeism, because of high turnover rates, insurance costs, um, and knowledge transfer.

SPEAKER_02:

So, and if we could just pause there, there's a personal finance cost as well, right? When I am talking to people and they're describing that burnout on a one-on-one basis, saying, I don't want to go back to work, like we need to get me retired now. Um, this is not serving me. Um, that's limiting, I mean, A, a lot of times we can fulfill that, you know, prophecy and get people retired, but it is limiting um, you know, kind of your financial resources in many cases if you're not prepared to retire, but you just can't go to work one more day. So yeah, like both from the business case as well as the individual family case, um, there's a lot that needs to be addressed there.

SPEAKER_00:

Right. Thank you for that. There are costs that have a cascading effect. Uh when we reach these walls, and I've reached my own burnout moments. I know of what I speak. Uh, this is not just theoretical. I've I've observed it in some of my clients where people are dying a slow death at work, and people don't want to do that. So, my goal is to equip not only individuals, but teams and organizations with a capacity to build creativity so that they can attract and retain the best talent. So the creativity, which again is this is a problem-solving process that involves toggling between wonder and rigor to solve problems, becomes part of the business case for work. It becomes part of the raison d'être for why people show up, it becomes part of the culture. It has to start, however, on taking this moment in time, this opportunity to redesign the ways we work. So the move think rest human operating system offers a way for us to think about building creativity as a strategic competency by thinking about movement hygiene, which is making sure that we are mobile during the day. It's not just about going to the gym, that we think about thought in terms of not only just our rational, quick thinking, decision-making, clear thinking thought, but the role of backcasting and forecasting. Backcasting is about reflection and memory and metacognition. And forecasting is about imagination and inspiration and curiosity. Backcasting and forecasting are actually essential for us to do our best rational, clear decision-making thinking. And then finally, rest is about intermittent rest. It's about being able to build in pauses throughout the day, the week, and the year. And that's really important because the way all natural systems work is a series of contractions and release, contract, release. The challenge is that in a lot of our human organizations, we only contract, contract, contract, squeeze, squeeze, squeeze. And that doesn't tend to um yield our best work and often leads to burnout.

SPEAKER_02:

So much to unpack there. I'm like, I'm buying what you're selling. I I love these concepts and I can see where my weaknesses are and also where I've like kind of backfilled a like a different way to kind of get there that maybe I need to investigate. Let's start with move hygiene, because this would be for me personally, like one of my like most weak points. I come in, I actually love the work that I do. I sit down, I start the day, my team is like, has Melissa had lunch? And then there, you know, like sometimes a lunch arrives at my desk. And um, so I work in spurts. So sometimes I work later on certain days, not every day. And then I, you know, leave the office and I'm like, did I even get up to go to the restroom? Like, what just happened to this day? So how can I um what obviously needing it, um, build that move movement hygiene into my work day in addition to getting into the gym more often?

SPEAKER_00:

Well, the first step is what you just did. You acknowledge you did some self-reflection and owned that there might be some discrepancy between what you realize you need to do and what you're actually doing. That's might not be the first time I knew that.

SPEAKER_02:

So, yes, I've I've had the acknowledgement for quite a while, but now we need to change.

SPEAKER_00:

Do that self-audit and acknowledge that um this is these are probably not the best habits that are I'm forming. So the first part is to do that self-audit. The next step is to literally build into your calendar those. I in my calendar it says buffer. And those are moments when I will if if if I'm getting better at it, but I really needed in the early days of being realizing the value of this sort of thinking and working and this research, that um I stay, I step away from my laptop. And it may be to empty the dishwasher, it may be to go on one of my five-minute long walks. Here's the thing: sometimes um I found that people are doing more walking because, not because they don't want to, but because they have in their mind that, oh, if I don't walk for at least 30 minutes, does it really count? Does it really matter? It absolutely does. And begin to identify a three-minute walk that you know you can do up and down the corridor, a five-minute walk, and make sure that you're buff buttressing in throughout your day those moments because when we move, our ideas move. The the fact that you know we are designed as humans to move, the spinal cord is an extension of the brain, it's an extension of the medulla ablongata. And so when we're sitting hunched over increasingly over our computers, what's happening is that blood flow is getting restricted to the to the brain, which means that oxygen is getting restricted, which means we're actually not doing our best thinking. Now, I don't know about you, Melissa, but for one of the the ways I begin to shift behaviors is when I can begin to a bit more logically understand what's happening. When I get that visual and it's it's it's not something I I want um to happen to me, that's that that helps to motivate me to shift. So it's acknowledging there's a problem with a self-audit. It's really delineating into your counter those those those times to move. And then it's actually doing it and making it make it simple and easy for yourself. You know, don't make it a challenge where you necessarily have to, if it's winter and cold outside, you have to put on a coat if that's something you don't want to do. Um, the other thing to do is to start to do daydream breaks throughout the day. And these can be 90 seconds long. Simply stand up, stand near a window, and have your phone nearby. In my case, I I literally time to 90 seconds, sometimes it two minutes, and I watch a cloud drift by and then I return to the work at hand. And if you don't believe me, just set it up as an experiment. Say for for for next week, um, I'm gonna commit to doing three-day dream breaks a day or making sure I have three five-minute walks a day and and note for yourself the difference it makes in their clarity of thought. I love that.

SPEAKER_02:

And I know I know how important, you know, like neuroscientifically it is to incorporate those things. So I'm sharing with you in the audience this is a commitment. Um, you can be my accountability partners and that I'm gonna try to incorporate that. So I love that. So let's move on to think because we're so limited in time, but this is all to me a teaser selfishly. I would love everyone to read more about this book, and we're even gonna talk about a challenge that's in the book in a moment. But on that think front, this has always been a really important thing for me in my career. Um, and I know hopefully for some of our listeners too, it's like, oh yeah, this is this really drives me and helps me. But what I've always done is built in um attendance at conferences and away from the office to keep me thinking because it doesn't happen in my current day to day or even in my past day to day. And what I recognize though is that as I need that space and time more, I don't want to be away from the office as much. And so I really need to find a way to collect and incorporate it into my regular day because that thinking time really allows me to assess, just like you're saying, backwards and forwards. Um, so what are some of your suggestions into how to incorporate um into your regular day-to-day? Um, is the daydream test one of them?

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, the daydreaming task is definitely a wonderful way to incorporate some movement, some thought in terms of that backcasting and reflection, but it also that the neuroscientists and cognitive scientists call this mind wandering. So in the research, that's what they call it mind wandering. And and the studies show that when we allow our minds to do this divergent thinking, this mind wandering, it actually is activating the neurosynapsis that allow for later down the line the synchronicity for those light bulb moments to happen, for uh those aha moments to happen. So um, one of the things you're doing, just Melissa, just through your podcast, you get to talk with people who have a range of perspectives, right? So that's that's a way that you're breaking up your work week, your work day to learn something new, to um process things. But the important thing that backcasting and forecasting also help us to do is that deep thought. Sometimes the sorts of thinking that we are asked to do during the day are feel a bit reactionary, they're putting out fires. And to move the ball forward to really shift exponentially the quality of the work that we're doing, we actually have to step away counterintuitively, we have to step away from the work and allow those ideas to marinate. And um, so the thought can be if you can um commit for yourself to start building in micro retreats, and I mean micro retreats. Is there, start slowly, is there one morning a month where you could take leave work a little earlier and go to an art gallery? Is there one meeting, one morning a month where you could come in a little later, or where you're doing your work um in a cafe in a different environment than you typically would have done? So the environmental context really matters as well. You know, I interviewed 58 people for MoveThink Rest. One of those groups of people were uh the leaders at a really cool workplace design architectural firm called A Plus I. And they invited me to uh take a look at the workspace that they designed for a division of publicists, the French PR company, one of the offices in New York, they have an outfit called Le Truc. And the whole purpose of Le Truc is to create an environmental stimulus of creativity where they'll bring in new clients and current clients to kind of on a very meta-level have them be in an environment where they begin to feel they can think differently. So when you walk into this workspace, there are nooks and crannies sorts of work environments that are very dark and intimate. There are big um benches and and kind of stadium sitting facing southern exposure windows where sunlight is streaming in. There are kind of caves and commons, uh, but that the some of the walls have like a velveting fabrication on them. So it's kind of a choose your own work adventure. It's this acknowledgement that we are uh we are sense-making sentient beings, and we have this biodiverse need for the environments to be and to stimulate different sorts of thinking. So placing yourself in different environments, if you manage a team, if you can mix things up and integrate play, could you have a meeting in a in a bowling alley, right? What's what sorts of you could still have the the theme of the the goal of of why your meeting is still present, but convene at the end of that play and discuss what sorts of ideas are coming to people about the next quarter's marketing strategy or whatever the the the topic is. But environment really matters and micro retreating is a way to to inch your way out of um your comfort zone and to make sure that you're giving, you're oxygen, oxygenating your ideas in new environments. Well, I can see that.

SPEAKER_02:

I I know I've experienced that success. I'm working on a challenge today for redesigning um one of the things that um an agreement that we have with clients. And I've told my colleagues, we don't have to have it fixed today. And I told them, I'm ruminating on it. Like it will be birthed, it's in my mind, I'm thinking about it. But I needed more time and space to kind of come up with the right next step instead of scrambling reactively for something.

SPEAKER_00:

So well, well, even it doesn't have to be the right next step, but but the other way to think about the thinking is to begin to adopt a way of prototyping your ideas, right? Of having pilots and run experiments and then get buy-in and feedback on them. I love it.

SPEAKER_02:

Okay, so rest. Are you saying like unlimited vacation days and just take, you know, as much time off as possible? How can we build in rest both day-to-day as well as when you just need to unplug? What do we need to be thinking about and advocating for?

SPEAKER_00:

Rest has to be modeled ideally by managers, or else unfortunately, teams will not fall into step, right? Because if you are a manager and if you're a member of a team, if you're not a manager, you know very, very well that that while if a manager says one thing but they're not doing it, you are less likely to try it. So it really has to be a tone that's said and has to be behaviors that are mirrored. So for example, I was on a podcast the other day where in our conversation the person was sharing about a CEO friend of his who was new to the firm, which is you know a good moment to begin to experiment with different new ways of working when you're still a little new. And he announced that he won, he planned to take his full vacation days and he expected his team to do it as well. And he would not be impressed by people sending him an email or two during the time when they said that they were going to be away and breaking. So, again, just as I talked about the buffer to put into your calendar on a daily basis, make sure that you're doing that, to stand up, to eat your lunch, not at your desk to make sure you're eating lunch and really fully enjoying and being grateful for this food that's nourishing you and the flavors that you can enjoy. And maybe, maybe it's by yourself staring out the window and just relaxing, and maybe it's with a friend from work, but making sure that you actually carve out the time that is distinctive from the work. We need to do that toggling back and forth so that we gain perspective on the work. I interviewed people also for the book who work for companies where sabbaticals are granted. The challenge with sabbaticals is that if if people aren't taking them, then you know, the the the cue there is that maybe I shouldn't take a sabbatical, but every person who took advantage of a sabbatical, they were more committed to their employer. They felt seen and heard, and they came back to the work at hand refresh. So microbreaks throughout the day can it can also be extended to on a quarterly basis. What do you design for yourself, for your team, and what are what are some sabbaticals that your company could offer or that you yourself could opt into and design yourself?

SPEAKER_02:

I love it. Well, as I'm hearing all this, I'm thinking about um our generation of women who were taught from a very early age, if you want to get ahead, you need to be the first to raise your hand. You need to get an A plus on everything. Perfect attendance is always, you know, preferred. Um, you know, when you get the opportunity to volunteer for something, you say yes. So then you can do both the, you know, kind of work tours as well as the big project that's going to get you the promotion. I don't think we were taught a lot about boundaries or, you know, being choosy about what we where we lend our time just as a generation. Um, and so if you find yourself waking up listening to this conversation, um, perhaps like me, and saying, um, okay, I need a lot of lessons on how to, you know, create space and time and model behaviors that are that avoid burnout for myself and others. Um, where would you start for us women, um, you know, 50, 40, um, 30-something women that are are finding that what got us here may not be what gets us to the next phase?

SPEAKER_00:

Amen to that. What got us here may not be what will get us there. And I think in a lot of ways, the move Think Rest human operating system to flourish is about setting boundaries. It's about the acknowledgement of what what where you are in your career and your place at work and being able to do as Amy Polar is credited for having, saying, uh, no is a complete sentence. Another person I like to cite, I really love that television show uh um uh succession. And there there's a scene where the um the GC or the CLO, the character's name is Jerry. She leans back at one point and she says to Roman, but how does that serve my interests? It doesn't serve my interests. And um we have an opportunity to, as much as we have volunteered, as much as we've showed up, we have to also um do that ebb and flow, that zoom in, that zoom out of being able to say, This is what I need right now. Um, this is how I need to move, this is how I need to think differently in order to be do my best work. This is how I need to build in rest and space. The value of liminal space is essential in this entire model. Liminal space is that, is that is are those spaces either metaphorically or in life where there's these vast unknowns. And sometimes it could be the ability to say out loud and honestly with confidence, I don't know the answer yet. I'm not sure. Let me think about it, let me think on it. Sometimes those liminal spaces come about because of life transitions, career transitions. And even though liminal space and ambiguity can feel a little terrifying initially, all of us probably can reflect on the fact that when we are at that threshold, that crossroads of liminal space, it's that's the precipice of discovery. But if we just push through, if we're constantly rushing through, we're actually missing out on the opportunity to do that next leap, to backcast and and and mine from all of our lived and learned experiences to do better work, more collaborative work and more intentional work. So the move think rest system is up is absolutely an opportunity to set healthy boundaries so that we can be working at our creative best. And the whole point of that is for consistent innovation. We won't innovate consistently or sustainably if we don't build in uh these speed bumps.

SPEAKER_02:

I love that. I love it for individuals, I love it for organizations. I hope there's there's more where that comes from for all of you. Um, I want to leave as we're wrapping up. You have a great exercise in your book, a 60-day challenge for how to incorporate move, think, rest into your life. Can you talk to me a little bit about that? Because I feel like, you know, with the season of intentions, this could be a great possibility of a really constructive habit forming um challenge to take on.

SPEAKER_00:

Thank you. Thank you for that. And thank you for for acknowledging the 66-day motor challenge as that opportunity to reset and reframe for what's ahead. So research shows that it takes 66 times before a new behavior becomes a habit. So that's why it's a 66-day motor challenge. And each challenge, it takes five to 10 minutes maximum every single day to begin to rewire the neural synapses in your brain and the sentient intelligence in your body to begin to work differently. It's everything from um check out a five to seven minute long YouTube that will teach you something new that you didn't know to taking a three minute long daydream break, to doing a dance break to your favorite music, to identifying a thought partner. Living or historical, who you would love to work on on this project that you just described that will help to reframe your thinking. So each one of these prompts that you'll get every single day, as you said, is in the appendix of the book. We're actually running the challenge live right now, but you can do with your team, it's a way to embed new behaviors which become new habits because your work will be fresher and much more dynamic.

SPEAKER_02:

I love it. You're doing such great work, such important kind of game-changing work. As a fellow liberal arts major, I am such an appreciator of interdisciplinary learning, of creativity. Um, I just love what you're doing, Natalie, and want more of it. Where can people find more about you? I'm sure there are many that want to listen to those TED talks or, you know, kind of watch what you're up to. Um, give me a little bit more about where people can kind of follow you.

SPEAKER_00:

Thank you so much. Uh people go to figure eighth thinking.com. That's f-i-g-u-re-e, the number eight thinking.com. They'll learn all about the the what the move think rest uh operating system and more the wonder rigor method and sign up for the newsletter where you'll get monthly tips and techniques. There's courses being offered, and definitely follow me on LinkedIn. But the first place to start is go to figure eight thinking.com.

SPEAKER_02:

And feel free to put MoveThink Rest on your holiday wish list. I personally am planning to send it to some movers and shakers, women that I respect and love, who I know probably are facing the same challenges that I am and could really appreciate a pause to reflect on how they kind of create their own operating day and operating system. Thank you so much, Melissa. Appreciate it, Natalie.

SPEAKER_01:

Thank you for listening to the Women's Money Wisdom Podcast. If you found value in this episode, the best way that you can support the podcast is to forward an episode to a friend or leave a review. Go to ProPlan.com and the podcast link to get all the resources and links mentioned. This presentation by Pro Planning is intended for general information purposes only. No portion of this presentation serves as a receipt of or substitute for personal investment advice from Pro Planning or any other investment professional of your choosing. Copies of Pro Planning's current rent and disclosure brochure and form CRS discussing our advisory services and fees are available upon request or on our website platform at ProPlan.com. The information that we share is meant to educate and inspire, not serve as personalized financial advice. Everyone's situation is unique, so be sure to consult with your own financial professional for guidance that fits your life. And just so you know, the opinions shared in this podcast are Melissa's own and those of her guests. They don't necessarily represent any organizations with which Melissa is affiliated. For more important disclosures, please go to our webpage at proplan.com.

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Melissa Joy, CFP

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