Women's Money Wisdom

Episode 263: Talking About Money and Overcoming Financial Stigma with Author Kathleen Burns Kingsbury

• Melissa Joy, CFP® • Season 4 • Episode 264

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Money is everywhere in our lives, yet talking about it remains one of the biggest taboos. In this episode, we bring together—Kathleen Burns Kingsbury, financial psychologist and author, and Melissa Joy, CFP®, founder of Pearl Planning—to explore why breaking money silence is crucial for financial confidence, wealth-building, and stronger relationships.

Key Takeaways:

💡 The Origins of Money Silence – Kathleen explains how our reluctance to discuss money started centuries ago as a form of protection but now acts as a barrier to financial literacy, confidence, and fair compensation.

🧠 Understanding Your Money Story – Before having important financial conversations with partners, children, or aging parents, self-reflection is key. Both emphasize that knowing your own money story creates a foundation for more authentic and productive discussions.

📊 Money Archetypes & Awareness – There’s no "perfect" money personality. Kathleen introduces different money archetypes and how understanding them can help you make better financial decisions.

👩‍💼 Women, Wealth & Workplace Confidence – Melissa shares why women often undervalue their skills in the workplace and how identifying your financial superpower—the unique value you bring—can help you negotiate with confidence and build wealth.

💰 Breaking the Silence for Financial Growth – Open conversations about wealth, investing, and financial planning are essential. Silence keeps women from maximizing their earning potential, making strategic investments, and stepping into financial leadership roles.

❤️ Money & Relationships – Talking about money isn’t just about numbers—it’s about values, security, and trust. Kathleen and Melissa explain how breaking money silence can strengthen personal and professional relationships.

🎯 Your Action Step: Commit to having one money conversation you wouldn’t have had before. Whether it’s with a partner, boss, or financial advisor, that single step can transform your financial confidence and help break generational money taboos.

Resources Mentioned:

📄 Free Financial Planning Resources – Get insights from Melissa at Pearl Planning

📘 Breaking Money Silence – Learn more from Kathleen at kbkwealthconnection.com

The previous presentation by PEARL PLANNING was intended for general information purposes only. No portion of the presentation serves as the receipt of, or as a substitute for, personalized investment advice from PEARL PLANNING or any other investment professional of your choosing. Different types of investments involve varying degrees of risk, and it should not be assumed that future performance of any specific investment or investment strategy, or any non-investment related or planning services, discussion or content, will be profitable, be suitable for your portfolio or individual situation, or prove successful. Neither PEARL PLANNING’s investment adviser registration status, nor any amount of prior experience or success, should be construed that a certain level of results or satisfaction will be achieved if PEARL PLANNING is engaged, or continues to be engaged, to provide investment advisory services. PEARL PLANNING is neither a law firm nor accounting firm, and no portion of its services should be construed as legal or accounting advice. No portion of the video content should be construed by a client or prospective client as a guarantee that he/she will experience a certain level of results if PEARL PLANNING is engaged, or continues to be engaged, to provide investment advisory services. A copy of PEARL PLANNING’s current written disclosure Brochure discussing our advisory services and fees is available upon request or at https:...

Melissa Joy :

Welcome to the Women's Money Wisdom Podcast. I'm Melissa Joy, a certified financial planner and the founder of Pearl Planning. My goal is to help you streamline and organize your finances, navigate big money decisions with confidence and be strategic in order to grow your wealth. As a woman, you work hard for your money and I'm here to help you make the most of it. Now let's get into the show. And I'm here to help you make the most of it. Now let's get into the show. Just a quick note before we dive in.

Melissa Joy :

The information that we share is meant to educate and inspire, not serve as personalized financial advice. Everyone's situation is unique, so be sure to consult with your own financial professional for guidance that fits your life. And just so you know, the opinions shared in this podcast are my own and those of my guests, and they don't necessarily represent those of any organizations that I'm affiliated with. For more important disclosures, please go to our webpage at pearlplancom. Now let's get started.

Melissa Joy :

Do you ever feel like you need to have a conversation about money, but you don't know who to talk to? Or perhaps that conversation is just not on the list of acceptable? You know things to talk about. That's what we're going to be talking about. Today we're talking with Kathleen Burns Kingsbury, the author of Breaking Money Silence. She has written a book that has been updated this year with a bonus chapter on how to unleash your true value. All about money taboos, how to shatter them, how to approach them and how to be more confident in your money by understanding what's acceptable culturally and how you talk about money. Kathleen, welcome to the podcast.

Kathleen Burns Kingsbury :

Thank you, Melissa. I'm really excited to break money silence with you.

Melissa Joy :

Oh, there is so much silence. I feel like people hear people talking all the time, but sometimes it's in social media, sometimes it's in observations of friends and neighbors, and we need more dialogue about how we should be approaching money and the right way to kind of tackle things. Tell me a little bit about how you pull all this together and develop this extraordinary kind of in essence curriculum when it comes to communication about money.

Kathleen Burns Kingsbury :

Sure, Actually, the original book was published in 2017 and the second edition was just published this year, and so in 2017, I took a look at all the work I had done with financial advisors and financial planners, where they said we really want to talk to our clients more about intergenerational wealth, passing down wealth, really have these financial conversations about values, about, like, the human side of finance.

Kathleen Burns Kingsbury :

And then I was also working as a coach with my own clients, who tend to be women or, in the past, were couples, and they'd say well, my financial advisor doesn't do that. And I go well, isn't this interesting that there's a gap between what the advising world wants to offer and what clients think they offer? And I did kind of surmise that that's because talking about money, at least historically, has been very taboo, and so I decided that I was going to write a book on why it was a taboo, but also, more importantly, give a roadmap for how to break through that silence and be able to engage in conversations with yourself, with your partner if you have one, with your kids, your aging parent, and also provide some resources for advisors who wanted to have these conversations as well. So that was the goal of the book and I'm happy to say it was achieved, and so when it came an opportunity to update it, I said, yeah, the world's changed. Let's see what's changed about talking about money.

Melissa Joy :

I love it. I noted that you said conversations with yourself first, and really it is so important to have a tone of voice, a communication strategy when it comes to how you approach money personally, and then that shows up in within your relationships, peers, et cetera, and so I just think that's such a powerful note that it starts with you.

Kathleen Burns Kingsbury :

Yes, and you know, one of the things I say to people all the time is that you know, sometimes people will come to me and say, well, I really want to talk to my husband or I really want to talk to my wife, and he or she is resistant.

Kathleen Burns Kingsbury :

And I say you know what? Start the conversation with yourself. And it's really important to understand our own money stories, our own history around money, our own automatic thoughts about money, wealth, its purpose in our lives, in addition to what we think and believe about engaging in conversations around it. And we can start the work there, and often that's what my coaching clients come to me for initially, and then, once you've done that work, then you can have a conversation about money that is less threatening, that often isn't about the dollars and cents but is more about how you feel about money or what your hopes and dreams are. And I find that people around us are a little bit more receptive to starting that conversation around finance. When it's not, you know you spent too much, or you know you didn't save enough, or you know what is your salary. We start with something that's a little less threatening, which is how do you feel about this whole thing Because it's complicated.

Melissa Joy :

It is complicated. So many of us carry an invisible backpack that defines our relationship with money and have never opened it up to look at it. You just have that weight on your shoulders and so I do think and you insert if you don't have your own voice that's comfortable and confident, or working on that over time, then in so many cases you insert what you think other people are saying about you and what you may not know that you and I, I think, know, kathleen, is that a lot of people who look like they have everything pulled together really have a lot of insecurity when it comes to their finances.

Kathleen Burns Kingsbury :

Yes, you know, there's a money archetype assessment that I do and it breaks people into eight different money archetypes, which is ways of being in the world. We have found that there are about eight different ways people typically are around money and it's neither good nor bad. But what is interesting is we often project how we think and feel about money onto somebody else and or make that assumption that they have it all together. And I'm here to tell you nobody has it all together. Even somebody who's written books on it doesn't have it all together. I think one of the things I would like to do is shatter the myth that you have to be perfect with money.

Kathleen Burns Kingsbury :

You can never make a mistake, because that's not realistic, that's not being a human around finance. It's when you do mess up, taking a look at what happened and learning from that experience and moving on. And I think if we sent that kinder, gentler message to people around finance, there'd be less money, shame and less self-judgment around you know, oh, I'm not doing it right.

Melissa Joy :

Well, when we unpack, I just love the opportunity to have someone who's looked at history to say why do we have these taboos? Why are we not comfortable talking about money? I mean, we're two women talking to each other, so we have the extra layer of burden that women weren't really given the purse strings unless they were about household bills historically until very recently, and that you know kind of dovetails into the way things are discussed in households, expectations set etc. But what did you learn about how these taboos came to be and what's important for us to know and understand?

Kathleen Burns Kingsbury :

I think what's important is that originally, not talking about money was really a way of protecting a family. So imagine this, and this is, you know, this is my imagery. So, but imagine the king and queen. They're sitting in the castle, the castle is going to be attacked because someone wants to take their wealth and their territory, and there's a bunch of gold bars in the basement. And so they're like don't tell the kids that there's gold bars in the basement, with the idea that you know they're trying to protect their kids from being taken advantage of. Now that's a it's a huge oversimplification.

Melissa Joy :

But when you see it, though, like the real assets were held in the household. You know way back when.

Kathleen Burns Kingsbury :

Yeah, and so it was a risk. I mean, they could be kidnapped, they could be killed, there's all sorts of things. So generation after generation just learned that you don't talk to your kids about money. And often children learn that we don't talk outside the family, and in some families we don't even talk about it in the family, and so I feel like it's just been passed down for so many generations until we got to a point of like, hey, this isn't really working. It's not working for affluent families, so people who have a lot of wealth, it's not working for working class families.

Kathleen Burns Kingsbury :

It's just really important that we engage in these conversations so we can teach the people behind us how to be financially literate, how to be confident and responsible Again, not perfect, just financially literate and responsible. And in order to break through that taboo, often there's someone who needs to take that risk to say, hey, I'd like to have a conversation about money, will you do that with me? And so that's the kind of call to action at the end of the book is dare to break money silence, dare to have one conversation you wouldn't have had before with somebody, and what you will find, and what I have found, which has been a cool kind of a cool result of writing this book is you have so many interesting conversations and a lot of them aren't about money. They're about who people are, what they value, and typically if a couple talks about money, or girlfriends talk about money or you know, adult children, parents there's an increase in intimacy. So once you get it past that initial taboo, it really does enrich relationships.

Melissa Joy :

I love that idea of intimacy, credibility and trust, also just tackling conversations that you may maybe a companion that you know, just a stressor, a source of insecurity, that may be your companion for years and years when you start to tackle that conversation, whether it's like hey, mom and dad, I'm just not sure if you have a game plan for how to handle things if you can't do it yourself and you know that might be something that they never imagined having a way to bring up, and they may choose to share something, but not everything. But I love that idea on so many levels.

Kathleen Burns Kingsbury :

Yeah, and the book is full of. I did a lot of interviews of other people, and so the book is full of stories where people have been in those situations the one you described is very typical and then there's steps and activities that help you open up those dialogues. You know, one of the things that I did learn between the first publication in 2017 and now, in my own life and in my own family and in my work with clients, was that you know you can try all these steps and you can invite someone to the table and 95% of the time, they're going to join you, and then 5% they're not, and so I really encourage people that just keep hitting up against a wall. If you've tried for a long time to really look for other people that are more accessible Whether that's your financial planner, you know someone like you, melissa, or whether that's a girlfriend that you have, or you know somebody at work you can break money silence with people who are ready, and sometimes people aren't ready.

Kathleen Burns Kingsbury :

And you know I know aging parents. That's a really tricky one, but it definitely is covered, because I have had to deal with two aging parents. I'm fortunate that they both engaged in money conversations, but certainly over the years it's gotten a little bit more complicated conversations, but certainly over the years it's gotten a little bit more complicated.

Melissa Joy :

Yeah, I do think that when it comes to that generational shift, where there was maybe more of a, the power was with the parents in terms of, like, launching conversations, and then there's a certain tipping point where you say, hey, can we open up some of the communication? There's generational shifts too in terms of what perhaps you know, an 80-year-old is used to disclosing or sharing versus. You know, and when you retired from jobs of their parents, it was like everybody knew they had a pension or something like that. And so you know, there's the. It's different when you have a net worth that's a million or two million dollars. It feels, you know, like that protection conversation feels perhaps a little different.

Kathleen Burns Kingsbury :

I think the other thing is for people who are listening in is that often when we're ready to talk about money, we've been thinking about it for a long time, like I'm worried about mom and dad. I've been thinking about it, thinking about it. So by the time you approach them, you've thought about it a long time. It may be the first time they realize you want to have this conversation. So really giving them as much control and grace on when, where and how to have the conversation and yes, it is, I've gone through that where it's that tipping point of like, well, wait a second, now I'm talking to dad about this and that feels kind of weird. And that's why in the book the chapter is called Raising Financially Fit Parents because, I feel like it is that flip.

Kathleen Burns Kingsbury :

We spend our lives raising financially fit kids and then all of a sudden wait a second. Now we have to work and raise financially fit parents.

Melissa Joy :

You're right, let's flip the switch. Well, so many of our listeners are sandwich generation, so they are increasingly engaged and concerned for their parents, in many cases, or aging relatives, but they're also, in many cases, raising kids or family members who they really care about. You know their approach to money. They want them to be prepared to be in the world, hopefully independent. I'm speaking for myself as a mother of tweens and teens. So what have you learned about the money conversation from parent generation down?

Kathleen Burns Kingsbury :

Well, one of the things that parents need to realize is that if you can start conversations about money early and have them often, then it just becomes another conversation, so it's not a taboo conversation Now if you're listening in and you haven't done that yet and your kid is 23,. Don mean, around age five they start to become aware of this thing called money and so kind of engaging in age appropriate conversations over time. And one of the things that sometimes parents worry about is that they're, again, not perfect around money or don't know that much. Well, you can learn along with your child. If that's the situation that you're in, that's an absolute okay thing to do.

Kathleen Burns Kingsbury :

And what I find is that when you, there was one book out there that interviewed 23 adult children and they talked about what was most important in terms of them being able to manage money, and one of the things they said was my parents, you know, dared to talk about it. We didn't always get along. They encouraged me to work and to understand my purpose, and now that I'm older, I'm thankful, even though I might have kicked and screamed a little bit in my teens we can put allowances on, because so so much of today's world is in cards and digital transactions, so you can't actually see the money.

Melissa Joy :

but in this case we can allow our kids, with some supervision, to have access to funds. I've learned so much about my kids' instinctual behavior, like there's one saver and one, just like it hits the account and we're at the convenience store grabbing snacks. You know, 10 minutes later and so I think you know talking about both mistakes that we've made over the years. You know like how it was when we were growing up with money. There's so many great conversations that don't have to, you know, include going through your retirement account statements and things like that.

Kathleen Burns Kingsbury :

Right, and what you're speaking to, melissa, is that we are.

Kathleen Burns Kingsbury :

I mean, there are some people who believe that we're born with a money temperament and so the fact that kids maybe have different money temperaments, the challenge, I think, as a parent, is to encourage both of them and not make one wrong or right, but that each of them may have to learn different things about money.

Kathleen Burns Kingsbury :

Like I grew up a huge saver I would say cheap In hindsight, cheap and, believe it or not into adulthood, and certainly becoming an entrepreneur and growing a business, I had to learn how to let go of money in a good way, you know, not overspending, but like investing in myself, for, you know, making sure that I wasn't so cheap that I wasn't having joy in my life, and thank goodness I married a husband who's really good at that. But he also learned from me how to save and how to be more responsible. And so I really think if we can help our young kids know that whatever their instincts are, they aren't necessarily bad or shameful, they are just. We need to be aware of it. And what are some of the traps in that particular type of being with money? And, you know, try to have balance in our lives.

Melissa Joy :

Yeah, I'll vulnerable share. I am more of a spender, and so how did I combat that? What hacks did I have, you know, before I had money? Well, I never had debt. So you know, I couldn't spend because I didn't take out credit cards when I was 20.

Melissa Joy :

I had a limit always and I hacked, you know, like saving up front and investing up front and I chose a partner who is more careful and tends to, you know, just be a little more austere when it comes to a money approach and I really focused on also like managing a career that I could, you know, grow to grow into my tastes, and things like that. So I think, you know, this is a great conversation topic of like we're just sharing a little bit about ourselves and can learn from each other.

Kathleen Burns Kingsbury :

Well, and what I love about what you shared, melissa, is that there is also this idea that all financial planners or advisors have it all together all the time. Not the case, no, and you know the idea that and I've worked with a lot of financial advisors in terms of coaching them on their businesses and one of the things that is really interesting is there's this assumption that all advisors would have the same money, personality or the same behaviors. Not at all, and so I think people who are going to advisors need to realize that advisors are just people too, and while they are professional and have an expertise and can really help you, so many clients worry that they're being so judged by their advisor, when, in fact, um, often they're not. They're just, um, you know, realizing that you're a human too.

Melissa Joy :

I know this isn't right. Like you know, like, oh no, that's great. Like A, this needs to fit with your psychology and personality and there is, contrary to you know, popular opinions. There is no equation, for in that example, like you could be at risk because you have a life that can't be funded if something goes bump in the night, if you don't have enough on hand. But there is, there shouldn't be judgment. There are, you know.

Melissa Joy :

There are parts of our profession that have rules and are unwilling to kind of customize them to the people that they're working with. But in so many cases you're not being judged at all. You're just having someone that is working with you that's helping you to make more confident decisions, and not making all my personal financial decisions without a secondary point of view.

Kathleen Burns Kingsbury :

Yeah, no, I think that's a huge value. The other thing and you're raising a good point, melissa is if you feel judged by your advisor or you feel like it's too strict and you're not really getting someone who's really there for you to understand you, there are other options. I think that you know everybody's probably well intended, but if it's not a good fit for you, then move on. And I too, I really believe in having a financial team because, again, you can write books on things. It doesn't mean that you're not a human being who sometimes needs guidance or expertise or knowledge that I just don't have, or don't have the interest or time to develop.

Melissa Joy :

Physicians also go to the doctor and it's kind of the same thing, and so I do see so much value though, in that, you know, kind of professional advice, of professional advice.

Melissa Joy :

I just like have to share that, as I was wrapping up a meeting earlier today to come and record this episode, the person I was speaking to had had a sudden wealth event, had inherited money, always was fiscally sound in terms of their own money story and finances, but never imagined they'd have the wealth they have today, and they talked about how they haven't had anyone. We're new working together. They haven't had anyone to talk to except for a family member who also is receiving the inheritance and that can feel so isolating and lonely. How do you suggest for people that are sitting in that seat where they may not feel comfortable they're, you know, trying to protect the family jewels and, you know, make sure that they don't expose themselves and also make sure that they are not deemed different than their surrounded community. Where are places they can have these conversations to help to feel more comfortable and prepared for their wealth?

Kathleen Burns Kingsbury :

Yeah, no, I think that's important.

Kathleen Burns Kingsbury :

I think there is an assumption not everybody has it, but there's an assumption in our society and certainly you read it in the media a lot about what it means to be wealthy, and often there is a lot of negative connotation with that.

Kathleen Burns Kingsbury :

As opposed to there's a lot of people who are very different, who are great, who happen to have inherited money or created money, and then there's also people who are great. But I think, to answer your question, you know, when you talked about this person, I think about a client that I'm working with money, but understand what it means to be inheriting the money and encourage conversations in the family about it. One of the things that can be really useful, in addition to working with an advisor like you who's open and can sit with the feelings, and or maybe a coach like me, are there are groups out there where affluent women will get together and actually come together and talk about what it's like to be in this situation, because it's complicated and there's places for affluent men as well. But when I think about women, there is not only the if you're inheriting money. There is the mixed message in our society about what it means to be profit motivated or to be wealthy as a woman, which unfortunately is still a little bit of a different message than men get.

Kathleen Burns Kingsbury :

Women get that. You know, the assumption is somehow they married into wealth or, you know, they did something that has nothing to do with their own skills to acquire it, whereas men would be potentially be seen as you know. Oh, that's so brilliant, you were able to create this wealth or inherit this wealth. And so there's organizations and I can get a list and you can put some of those in the show notes that have, you know, free social hours, virtually. I'm blanking on the name right now, to be honest with you.

Kathleen Burns Kingsbury :

But I've referred clients to it and it's really a great resource and you know, there are different ways in which you can start to find safe people who you can have that conversation with, because you're right, if you're too silent about it, it's very isolating.

Kathleen Burns Kingsbury :

Let me tell you a quick story. Yeah, I was doing a two-part webinar for a financial services firm and it was for their affluent clients and it was a group of women, and what was so fascinating is the first of the two webinars was all about understanding your money personality and what are your concerns about having wealth, and almost everyone in this group said it's really uncomfortable with my friends. I don't know how much they have versus I have. I don't want to. I want to invite them to a birthday party, but I don't want to insult them if they can't afford to go to like this destination birthday party and it was so.

Kathleen Burns Kingsbury :

It was like such a through line and all these women's backgrounds were different, but they all had a certain amount of wealth and so if you're you know, for your client and for other people listening in, that, unfortunately, is part of the experience. But if we get together and get in community and break that money silence, what we find is we can figure it out. You're more than that inheritance and that often good friends can be able to kind of figure out those pieces.

Melissa Joy :

I love it. I do think it's. You know, there's not. You can't just have an announcement, but you can kind of broach and approach and, you know, just make it more regular. If you hang out with financial professionals, we just talk about money all the time, not in a way that's like nosy or inappropriate, but like do you mind my asking how much that costs or how does that work, and things like that. And so you can kind of baby step into safe spaces, because the reality is I know a lot of millionaires next door where you would never know if you pulled up in the driveway, what was going on behind the scenes.

Melissa Joy :

And there are also so many people that seem to exhibit signals and signs of being extremely wealthy, that may you know, have a thousand dollars in the account at the end of the month. So you know that there's so much kind of societal signaling that can be a distraction or send the wrong message. Signaling that can be a distraction or send the wrong message. So, just like one-on-one discussions and finding your safe spaces over time can be helpful.

Kathleen Burns Kingsbury :

Absolutely. I think the other thing that's interesting is, you know, I've been an entrepreneur for over 20 years and it's finding safe spaces also to talk about, like earnings or fees or you know what somebody makes in a career, and so there's the saving, spending, gifting and investing piece, which is really important.

Kathleen Burns Kingsbury :

But there's also like, as women, how do we figure out what we should be earning if we're asking, dare I say, too much, not enough is usually the case, and what I've been really gifted with and sought out over time is just other women who can have those conversations, and men, a lot of male allies who will. They'll be like you're, you know you're thinking with a female brain. I would charge much more for that, and so that can be really useful when we're thinking about, especially for Gen Xers and millennials who are moving up the career ladder, when we're thinking about getting promoted or negotiating our next deal, because our earnings does impact how we're able to take care of ourselves and our family and how we're able to invest. And you know, Melissa, that I'm passionate about it. I just think it's an important piece of the puzzle.

Melissa Joy :

Well, human capital is so important. For many of us, it's our largest asset, and so you, I know, must be passionate about this topic, and you're dovetailing into your bonus chapter how to unleash your true value. So what have you? What compelled you to write this edition into the book? And and what do you have? What should people be thinking?

Kathleen Burns Kingsbury :

about into the book and what should people be thinking about? Well, it's interesting because when I first wrote Breaking Money Silence, it was all about talking with our loved ones, talking with our financial advisor. We've already talked about that, and so I really wanted to bring the Breaking Money Silence message into the workplace. And because my area of specialty tends to be women and wealth, whether I'm working with advisors or whether I'm working with women, it was a natural to kind of go OK, so it is different for women when it gets to earnings. You know whether we're able to get promoted. You know it's pretty well known that there's less women in leadership positions, that there's a gender wage gap, that there's a gender investing gap, gender retirement gap, and so I really wanted to look at that and say what do we need to be doing individually? There are systematic issues this chapter doesn't address that but what do we need to be doing individually to advocate for ourselves?

Kathleen Burns Kingsbury :

And I think the first thing is we need to figure out what value means like when we are selling ourselves, whether we work for a firm, whether we work for ourselves. It's even selling ourselves in terms of, like, a volunteer position. So it doesn't have to always involve money, but it's really thinking about what's our value. And there's market value, there's our skills and knowledge. That's important.

Kathleen Burns Kingsbury :

The thing that I think women discount the most is their superpower. Each and every one of us has at least one superpower, if not more, and basically that superpower is something that probably comes quite easy to us, that is very valuable to the other person, and so for you, melissa, my guess is there's a way in which, meeting with you, people leave feeling a certain way, and that emotional impact that you have is your superpower impacting them, and that's why people buy, so that's why they're going to pay a certain fee, that's why you should be paid a certain salary at a company, and so how to unleash your true value really talks about how do you identify that value and then how do you communicate it in a way where you can advocate for yourself and take care of yourself and the people around you.

Melissa Joy :

I think this is so important because in so many cases, people come to me and they say here's my dreams, here's my goals, I really want to do this.

Melissa Joy :

And you look at the balance sheet, you look at the cash flow and you say, we, this is possible, you can do anything, but if you don't change your income, what you were compensated for when you're working 50, 60, 70 hours a week and sometimes it requires a job change too but reorient if, if you're not going to be valued in the place that you are, do you give them that discount forever or do you make a change?

Melissa Joy :

I just am automatically thinking of a couple of clients, separate situations I've worked with where you know either the cash flow wasn't working too expensive where we live, but then you're working at a failing company that can never afford to pay you what you're really worth, company that can never afford to pay you what you're really worth. Or you know, my dreams are that in 10 years I'm working for myself but I have a great nest egg and it's like well, you're never going to be considered a vice president in your current company or compensated effectively for taking on that true role, and you do need to shop around, and so it can be profound when you start to change your mindset to really be compensated based on your value.

Kathleen Burns Kingsbury :

Well, and when you bring up mindset, you know there's a couple of different steps that are in the chapter. It walks you through a process to identify and communicate that value, and one of the interim steps is really adopting a success mindset. And I, you know that's looking at the glass half full versus half empty. And I'll be transparent, I was not born looking at the glass full, I had to learn that, and so one of the gifts that many, many women have is they're emotionally intelligent, they are resilient, and so it's applying that to your relationship with money and your relationship with earnings, and so our mindset does make a your relationship with money and your relationship with earnings, and so our mindset does make a difference. So when people understand, like their money personality or archetype, they understand how to quickly bounce back and learn from something that goes wrong, which is having a success mindset, I find. Then they're able to make the changes or advocate for themselves in a new way, which is hard. It can be scary.

Melissa Joy :

But what I find is it takes risk.

Kathleen Burns Kingsbury :

Yeah, I mean, and what I find is, when I work with women and they're able to do it on the other side, it just feels so good to be able to take care of yourself. And it's not just about the money, it's about setting a limit, it's about saying I'm worth something, it's about standing up for yourself, role modeling to the people you know, your kids or the people younger people around you. So there's a lot of different aspects to it and it's been really fun to explore that work and do more of it in the past couple of years.

Melissa Joy :

Well, in those two examples I think that you can really, if you have the benefit of time and to reflect back, like in each of those two kind of case studies, the person was able to at least double their annual take home by making some shifts. And you know, in many cases when you're an executive or working for a publicly traded company, another component of that is equity compensation, for example.

Kathleen Burns Kingsbury :

Yep, there's all sorts of compensation, yeah, yeah.

Melissa Joy :

And so, you know, you need to educate yourself and not just, you know, kind of go in and assume that you're going to get the first, the first offer is the best offer. What does this really mean? And so in that, in those cases too, that's, that's a great, like you know, kind of asterisk, like, oh, we need a professional in the room to be advising us, because obviously the employer has those professionals on the other side of the table as well.

Kathleen Burns Kingsbury :

Right and it's learning what is negotiable and learning what you want and what you need and that ties to your values. I mean, I had one person that I work with that money was not what was important to her as much as time, so she actually negotiated Wednesday mornings off to take ice skating lessons. I love it Because she said, they said they couldn't up her salary and she goes OK, I want Wednesday mornings to take ice, and it's not like she was an ice skating star, which makes it even greater. She just wanted to explore this and she said you know what, that's the best time of the week. And I said well then, that's what was valuable to you.

Melissa Joy :

And that was worth negotiating in your compensation package. I heard you slip in boundaries there and you know that can prolong a career, right. So if you have a job where you're expected to be on call Saturdays and Sundays, you know, establishing those boundaries because you're going to be burnt out and out the door in a year can really prolong your ability to like kind of have that asset of your human capital. So I would encourage you to think, just like you're describing, of how to integrate things that are important to you and also have limitations, so that you don't, you know, give more to the job than you do to the rest of your life.

Kathleen Burns Kingsbury :

Yes, that's great advice. I think one of the things that that people come to me and say which is not true, but I understand where it comes from is if I just work harder, then I'll get noticed, and I'm like that isn't how it works. Unfortunately, it's not how it works. That leads to burnout.

Kathleen Burns Kingsbury :

And so, yes, setting good boundaries, working with a professional to understand your money mindset and also looking at you. Know how do I make sure and this is your end of things, melissa that financially I have the things in place and I'm earning what I need to earn in order to achieve my goals. And I've been in a lot of different professions this is my third career. They've all progressed towards this one and I have to tell you it's scary at first, but then it's so liberating to be able to do something you're passionate about and take care of yourself and set those boundaries, and I really encourage people to read the bonus chapter and really think about how they can shift things.

Melissa Joy :

Well, I think it is, you know, kind of a call to be strategic when it comes to don't just accept whatever is given. Really have an approach where you're tending to that asset, You're really looking at your cash flow and your ability to earn in a way where you're appreciated, you know your value and you're working toward achieving or even extending beyond what you might think is possible.

Kathleen Burns Kingsbury :

Absolutely, totally agree.

Melissa Joy :

Well, as I was thinking about this conversation, I hope that our listeners in all of these discussions that I have with amazing guests like Kathleen are hearing that this is a conversation. Money really is just something where opening the door, opening up a little bit with a safe space, having with your partners, with your friends, having a set aside for the people that you can trust to have these conversations, and including these minutes, whether they're on the treadmill or in the car, as part of your money conversations. I think I hope that you find you know kind of the examples set as positive and hopeful and I just love that you're putting the space in the world, kathleen, to help people understand and learn how to communicate about money and just for everyone.

Melissa Joy :

I strongly recommend the book um Breaking Money Silence. We will have links in the show notes so that people can um get access to the book. But, kathleen, what else would you mention in terms of where people can find you and any other resources you may have?

Kathleen Burns Kingsbury :

Sure, um, the biggest resource that I'm offering everybody who's listening today or downloading it later is there is a prepare a money conversation handout. It walks you through how you can prepare for a conversation that you are feeling anxious about, and so we'll have a link in the show notes for that. You can use that in talking to your kids, your partner, your boss. It's kind of a general tool, so I want to make sure everybody had that, whether they bought the book or not. It's kind of a general tool, so I want to make sure everybody had that, whether they bought the book or not. If you want to know more about my work, the best place to go is my website, which is kbkwealthconnectioncom, and it's a training, coaching and consulting firm, and I'd be more than happy to break money silence with you.

Melissa Joy :

Well, keep up the amazing work. Congratulations on the second edition of the book and thank you so much for joining us.

Kathleen Burns Kingsbury :

Kathleen. Thank you, melissa, I love the work you're doing.

Melissa Joy :

Thank you for listening to the Women's Money Wisdom Podcast. If you found value in this episode, the best way you can support the podcast is to forward an episode to a friend or leave a review. Go to pearlplancom and the podcast link to get all the resources and links mentioned.

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Melissa Joy, CFP

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