Women's Money Wisdom

Episode 219: Simple Steps To Protect Seniors From Financial Fraud with Cathy Curtis, CFP®

• Melissa Joy, CFP® • Season 4 • Episode 219

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Melissa Joy, CFP® and Cathy Curtis, CFP®, dive into a serious topic: financial fraud against elders. Cathy explains that while scammers try to trick seniors into giving them money illegally, there are many ways to spot these scams and keep your elderly loved ones safe. 

Listen to gain the know-how and tools to avoid fraud smoothly as you or your loved ones get older. 

 Listen and Learn:

  • The common scams being used today to steal from elders
  • Warning signs that may indicate an elder has already fallen victim to fraud
  • What to do if you think a loved one's money was taken by scammers
  • Resources and organizations dedicated to preventing elder financial abuse

Resources:


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Melissa Joy, CFP®:

Welcome to the Women's Money Wisdom Podcast. I'm Melissa Joy, a certified financial planner and the founder of Pearl Planning. My goal is to help you streamline and organize your finances, navigate big money decisions with confidence and be strategic in order to grow your wealth. As a woman, you work hard for your money and I'm here to help you make the most of it. Now let's get into the show.

Melissa Joy, CFP®:

If you're like me, you are scared to death when it comes to fraud, like cyber is something that we are all thinking about, and I just thought it made sense to devote a Women's Money Wisdom episode to this, and I'm thrilled today to be joined by Cathy Curtis, who I am so blessed to call a friend, but she's also just a rock star financial planner. She is founder and president of Curtis Financial Planning. She is just she's a financial planner's financial planner. You'll see her all over doing great things, really advocating for women when it comes to financial literacy, and I thought of this topic because I was reading on CNBC and Cathy wrote an op-ed. That's all about protecting people, especially older women, from cyber threats. So, Cathy, welcome to the podcast.

Cathy Curtis, CFP®:

Thanks, Melissa. It is so good to see you and be able to do your podcast with you. Your podcast is amazing. If the people listening now haven't gone back and listened to the past episodes, they're missing out.

Melissa Joy, CFP®:

So, thank you, I'll make sure to link to your past episodes. You're a return guest, one of the chosen few. I love it and that's because you just create such great content. You are so fact-based and fact-laden. And so let's talk about your article, your op-ed in CNBC, which of course, we're going to be linking to, and the title of that is Financial Fraud Targets Older Adults, especially Women how to Recognize and Prevent it. So this is an episode everybody needs to listen to. If you're in your car, make a note that you should probably grab mom and dad if they live in town close to you, and maybe when you guys are running errands, listen to this again, because we know that so many of our listeners are sandwich generation. They've got, you know, kids and complications at work and they also sometimes are taking care of mom and dad, or at least making sure that you know they're taking care of themselves. So tell me how you started thinking about this topic.

Cathy Curtis, CFP®:

Yeah, the reason I suggested this topic to CNBC because I had a recent experience with an older client, 81 years old, who has had multiple attempts by fraudsters to steal her money. Attempts by fraudsters to steal her money and it's been fascinating to watch this happen and to witness how vulnerable she is as an older person who lives alone is declining a little bit. She's pretty sharp, but declining in some areas, which is not unusual. We all do, and to see her just be so trusting in situations where we, as younger people, we know you would never trust strangers on the phone or by email, so I thought you know what? She's not the only one. This is happening all over the place, and so when I started doing my research and saw the billions of dollars that are lost to fraud every year, I thought you know what? It's time to get this out more, out in the public, because AI is going to enable criminals to do even more online fraud, and so I think people really need to be aware. So that's why I wrote the op-ed.

Melissa Joy, CFP®:

Well, I think AI can protect the good guys and also be the bad guys, right.

Melissa Joy, CFP®:

So there's new tools and we have to stay on top of it. One of the things I always tell people is just having the speed bump of actually having a professional who is your financial planner, versus just being an 800 number, as your team really can make a difference. We had a situation where there was home purchase happening which was legit, but then a fraudster figured out by the purchase contract or public details that the purchase was happening and sent fraudulent wire instructions, and if we hadn't picked up the phone and confirmed it, as we have to do based on our compliance procedures, money could have gone to the wrong spot to the criminals, and so I know this is so important. You know our firms and our custodians devote thousands and millions in the case of custodians of dollars to protect clients, but you just have to stay vigilant on all levels. I think that's done me from your article. In 2022, people over age 60 lost $3.1 billion. On average, $35,000 per victim. Those numbers are stunning $35,000.

Cathy Curtis, CFP®:

And it doesn't just happen to people whose faculties may be declining, believe me, it happens to everyone, and it's because the thieves are getting more and more sophisticated in the way they approach you. So I've got some practical ideas for people listening, especially if they are older themselves or they're children of older parents. And one thing that was really fascinating to me and this is a non-digital way to see what's going on is I sat with this client that I'm talking about and I said okay, emily, open up your email. I want to watch you go through your emails. It was fascinating.

Cathy Curtis, CFP®:

First off, she gets so much spam it's scary, so she doesn't have good spam filters. That's one tip Strengthen your spam filters. So a lot of those bad emails that you may click on accidentally don't go through. She clicks on everything. So your parents may be doing the same thing. And if you're clicking on, you know you get 100 emails and you're clicking on 10 of them, chances are you may click on a spam email. So behavior around computer use is so important to monitor. And then you could maybe it needs better security software, better spam filters. You know, delete, have someone go in and unsubscribe from all these emails for this person that doesn't. They don't know how to unsubscribe or to identify a fraudulent email. There are signs, as you know. You look at the email address. It's pretty obvious to me when it's a fake email address. There's usually a lot of numbers in it, or weird digits the name is different than there's a headline name.

Melissa Joy, CFP®:

But you have to look at that address with the dot com at the end and see if it matches what's coming in, because those can be a mismatch. And you know, I'm sure you're the same, Cathy. My team has to do compliance training every month on fraud and what to look for and things like that. But of course on your personal email nobody's telling you. You have to go and do your test each month.

Cathy Curtis, CFP®:

No, they're not and there's impersonators. So one of the instances of fraud with this woman was her. So one of the instances of fraud with this woman was her computer services. She thought it was a legitimate computer services email from Computer Geek or Geek Squad one of those. It was fraudulent. She clicked on it, she followed the link. She got on the phone. She gave out her personal email. They hacked into her bank account. So even if an email looks like it's from someone you know, it might not be, that's how sophisticated fraudsters are getting. So email vigilance is like a number one priority and technology hygiene.

Melissa Joy, CFP®:

you know like, do have some filters yourself, don't get caught up in the algorithms. Your algorithm may be AOL, while I'm worried about my kids' TikTok behavior, but you know you do. I think that one of the things I don't want people to leave with is like I should just opt out. I'm gonna, you know, only use the postal service, for example. Well, it has issues itself. So if you just say no, nothing in the digital world is going to be my friend. Unfortunately, you're going to be closed out of financial institutions because they are increasingly in order to cover their CYA themselves. They do not let you just act in a paper world anymore especially the institutions that are really keeping up.

Cathy Curtis, CFP®:

Oh yes, and since COVID that has accelerated greatly. I really don't think you can do business without being digitally savvy anymore. Your own banking, your own investments. You know, the custodians we use are almost forcing people to be online all the time. Custodians we use are almost forcing people to be online all the time.

Melissa Joy, CFP®:

Yeah, it's a real toughie. I have a client that still has capacity but has given up on the computers and the emails, and we had to add a co-trustee because we couldn't get business done because I'm not in his backyard to go over and get a signature and do that every day. So this is something we're going to have to address because so many companies are thinking about longevity planning. But, you know, the more digital you get, you may be closing out and lacking inclusion to populations that do still have capacity and, as you and I both know, we could be talking about a 99-year-old or a 55-year-old. Age stops mattering and it's very specific to the person. You know, one family member could have dementia and the other could, you know, be crystal clear at age 100. So, right, we're not picking ages here and all of us are vulnerable to these types of things, right?

Cathy Curtis, CFP®:

So the question is we know what the problem is and what can we do about it. And if people are lucky enough to have children that are willing to step in and help, that's great. Help secure their computers more, maybe even start paying the bills things like that taking over some of those functions. But I have a lot of clients that are single and they're older, so a lot of their family members have passed on. They're on their own. So what I recommend is, at a certain point, they proactively plan for the time when they're not going to be able to do it themselves and contract with agencies. I have one woman that she checks in every morning now with an agency to let them know I'm okay. She has Apple specialists come to her house and show her how to use her Apple Watch and her phone. She's really engaged and I think people have to realize that they may not be able to do this themselves and get some help.

Melissa Joy, CFP®:

Well, that's a great, you know, kind of first step If you're listening and you're like I'm more concerned about another vulnerable peer or family member or somebody I care about, or if it's you, first of all be willing to ask for help, because the worst thing that can happen is you realize you screwed up and then you start to cover it up because you're embarrassed, ashamed. That happens in, for example, romance scams. If somebody impersonates a relative and ask for money, you may figure it out later that oh, they took my money, and then you don't say anything and you may still be vulnerable to the next time. So, like, have a conversation with the people that you care about to say, if you are worried about something, I would look and I won't, you know, judge you and this happens to anyone. But you need to say something, whether it's to the police department, to the area agency on aging or to your family members. Like, hey, we need to look at my account because something's wrong.

Cathy Curtis, CFP®:

It's so true you brought up such a really important point is the shame. This woman that I work with that I'm referring to. She uses the word ashamed so often. I am so ashamed every time this happens to her. It's not about me. I feel bad for her and I understand why she might feel that way, but this is a universal thing. This is not just happening to her, and I keep trying to reassure her that it even uh, why? I mean, as advisors, we have to have all kinds of screens and things up so something doesn't go wrong with our business. There's a reason why because the perpetrators are so sophisticated, it's true. Yeah, it really would be a shame if shame stopped someone from telling people what is happening. You know, besides digital fraud, like with emails and fraudulent websites and things, fraudsters use the phone too, and it's true.

Melissa Joy, CFP®:

And the phone is like a computer, right and it's, it's, it's our biggest connection to the world, especially if you're more isolated, if you're more isolated and I know I don't use the phone that much.

Cathy Curtis, CFP®:

Older people like the phone. It's a generational thing. If you were used to using the phone all the time the phone rings, you pick it up and fraudsters know that and they can masquerade as the local electric company or your brokerage account and they sound very convincing and they can talk you into giving personal info. One of the key things I keep trying to drum into my clients is never, ever, ever, ever give social security number, birth date, bank account number over the phone to anybody you know, because you're taking a risk.

Melissa Joy, CFP®:

They're not who they think they are. Yep, that's true and you do need to be asking. For example, if you work with financial planners like us, I would ask about the cybersecurity policy. It's something that we need to report to the SEC, what we're doing and we need to keep on top of it in terms of our continuing ad, our investment in software. But that's not a foreboding conversation. That should be a comfortable conversation in the room and, of course, we're not impenetrable either. But having a good company hygiene when it comes to that, safety and verification and checking and things like that is increasingly relevant.

Cathy Curtis, CFP®:

Yeah, there's one other important issue, too, that I see happen is and we're all like this everyone wants their independence throughout their life. Right, I think it's one of the most cherished values we have is that we're able to do things for ourselves. Like no one wants to give up driving for one. Most people do not want to give up managing their own finances either. Amen, I get it. Yeah, but it's really true. I've seen it over and over with my own parents, with relatives.

Cathy Curtis, CFP®:

There comes a time when it's really hard for the human brain to process a lot of detail, and that's when it's time to turn it over. But if you wait until that point to make a plan for someone to take over for you, it could be too late. So planning early is really important. So, people who are listening that are in this position, I think it's good to have a think about these things in your 60s, 70s. Make it part of your estate plan, or an addendum to your estate plan, how you want to handle it if you can't handle your own finances, of course you have the durable power of attorney for finances that can be initiated. And if you're children of older people, make sure you're checking in with your parents on a regular basis to see if they're okay with using the computer and paying their bills and things like that, before they even ask for help.

Melissa Joy, CFP®:

That's so true, like if you can make a plan in your 60s and I might even consider setting an age where you're going to hire a professional, if you've been a DIYer all your life, because you just. One of the things that starts to diminish before your full capacity diminishes is your decisiveness. So you may ask for information again and again, but you know what's going on, but you're not clear. Numbers can be more complicated than day to day some other day to day stuff, and so it's just going to be really tough if you're waiting until you're in a crisis to say, oh, now's the day that you should hire a planner to do more comprehensive work.

Melissa Joy, CFP®:

And I know, Cathy, you work with mainly women, single women in many cases. But I work with couples where maybe the couple comes in and like, if anything, if I die, then she's going to hire you or things like that. But if you don't, if you're not willing to kind of coordinate with a professional while you're healthy, it's really tough to turn around and not be the ghost in the room. That's like kind of lording over the conversation of we always did it this way or things like that. So no, that's its own episode.

Cathy Curtis, CFP®:

But yeah, well, you know, I, as you're talking, I'm thinking what would this woman have done if she didn't she text and she said Cathy I. She sometimes says I think I've made a mistake, She'll text me, I'll go. What happened? Yeah, and so I had interference. I've been able to stop several attempts at fraud. She has me as her trusted person that knows how to handle financial matters. What if she didn't have a trusted person? What would happen? So that's a really good point. I mean, I don't know what people who live on their own or don't have grown children to help them, what they do, but it's more important than ever for them to have a plan or to reach out, hire somebody, and I hope the listeners take this to heart and that that message gets out there.

Melissa Joy, CFP®:

Yeah, I think that you know. Take that message to heart. Do do some things as a family or have a conversation with the people. For this conversation. Are there any resources that you'd suggest people include? I've got a link to a fraud monitoring service that you know. One of my concerns when I do an episode like this is people think I'm an expert and I'm not on this. We care about this and we provide resources. I think we're good connectors, but unfortunately we are not the fraud police. But I will include a link to that. That is a service that one of our vendors recommends. But do you have any other things?

Cathy Curtis, CFP®:

Yeah, I mean, I did a Google search and there are all kinds of websites for older people. Arp sometimes sponsors them, like Senior Planet, cyber Adults that offer classes on how to use your computer, how to handle email securely, all these things, and they have them as blog posts, as videos, whatever way you learn best. There's all kinds of options and we can add some of those links to the show notes, melissa, so people can follow through. There's really a ton of resources out there.

Melissa Joy, CFP®:

There is, and you just have to have your spidey sense to make sure the resources aren't sending you down. What I don't want people to end up is I do see people that get frozen in fear, and the reality is you do need to still do business in this world, and if you just are overwhelmed by what you could lose, then you may either be more vulnerable as a victim or unable to do business in a healthy way. So do have the level of skepticism and do practice safety, but I don't want you to have this episode veer you into inaction.

Cathy Curtis, CFP®:

Well, one thing people can do is, if they do find a resource online, is, before they go down the rabbit hole and start clicking on links, they could share it with either their financial advisor or their children and or a friend and say what is this a legit? Does this look legit to you and do you think this is going to help me?

Melissa Joy, CFP®:

I love that and do some spring cleaning. Like you know, we're publishing this episode in the spring and you know, if you have 40 accounts because you just open an account at every place you ever worked in every bank you could get a good CD rate. Like one way to improve your safety would be to reduce the number of accounts so you can keep track of what's there and then be able to do a 90 day like you know overview whether it's with a bookkeeper, family member, things like that. So you know, sometimes people are diversifying by location and all that does is increase the propensity, especially because some of those legacy institutions may not have the best cybersecurity program themselves.

Cathy Curtis, CFP®:

Well, yeah, just old and less funded, and also you lose track of them. I mean, there's a website for lost assets. I went on it. My mom was a CD opener, you know everywhere there was a good rate she'd open a CD. I went on it. My mom was a CD opener, you know everywhere there was a good rate she'd open a CD. I went on this website, which we should probably share in the resource.

Melissa Joy, CFP®:

We'll include that. Yeah, that's great. I think we even maybe did an episode on it, but I'll make sure to share it.

Cathy Curtis, CFP®:

I found a couple of CDs accounts at various places that my mom forgot about. So you know, do some spring cleaning. Yes, spring clean your email inbox. Unsubscribe. Okay, you have to also be careful. Unsubscribe. See, there's so many little nuances to this that you have to be careful with anything you do in this area, even unsubscribing, it's true.

Melissa Joy, CFP®:

Well, I think this is going to be one of the most popular episodes Kicked off because you wrote such a great article. Thank you, great work. I have a feeling you're going to be a guest and you know, this isn't your last time as a guest on the podcast either.

Cathy Curtis, CFP®:

I hope so. Well, you know, I picked the topics based on my real life experience with clients. This is what is really happening out there real life experience with clients.

Melissa Joy, CFP®:

This is what is really happening out there. Well, that's what I love about being able to do women's money wisdom, whether it's just me talking in the room by myself, or I love having my amazing friends, because, you know, we don't get to see each other all the time. Cathy, you're sitting in California and I'm sitting in my laundry room in Michigan. To full disclosure, there's no video on this episode, but you'd see the Tide bottle in the background if you did, because I got all dressed up just for you and we see each other once a year at least at a conference in California. But in the meantime, we're all just in the trenches learning, and I hope everybody listening both Cathy's clients as well as our loyal listeners recognize that. You know we don't have all the answers, but we do know some of the problems and when you roll up your sleeves and get practical, you can really solve a lot.

Cathy Curtis, CFP®:

Yes, that's very true, that's very true.

Melissa Joy, CFP®:

Well signing off from the laundry room.

Cathy Curtis, CFP®:

Thanks for bringing this important topic to your listeners and I think it will initiate some action.

Melissa Joy, CFP®:

Absolutely. Thanks for joining us, Cathy Okay.

Cathy Curtis, CFP®:

Have a good day, bye.

Melissa Joy, CFP®:

Thank you for listening to the Women's Money Wisdom Podcast. If you found value in this episode, the best way you can support the podcast is to forward an episode to a friend or leave a review. Go to pearlplan. com and the podcast link to get all the resources and links mentioned.

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