Women's Money Wisdom

Episode 190:Breathing, Energy, and the Science of Well-being with Cass Ghiorse

• Cass Ghiorse • Season 4 • Episode 190

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Do you ever stop to marvel at the incredible intricacies of the human body and the wisdom it possesses? This episode of Women's Money Wisdom Podcast welcomes Cass Ghiorse, a brilliant mind at the confluence of science and spirituality, who teaches us to do just that. Cass unravels the often confusing web of the wellness industry, highlighting how simple, low-cost methods like breathwork can foster a profound connection with our bodies and minds. An in-depth exploration into the dynamics of our respiratory system and stress regulation unveils how something as basic as breathing can significantly influence our state of awareness. Even more captivating is the power of energies - both yours and of those around you.  Tune in to this fascinating episode of Women's Money Wisdom Podcast as we uncover the power and wisdom inherent within our bodies, and remember to follow us for more enlightening conversations like this one.

Resources:

·         Learn more about Cass Ghiorse

·         Follow Cass Ghiorse on Instagram

·         Listen to Episode 189: Finding Personal Success and Wellness: A Conversation with Melissa Coulier

·         Learn more about Pearl Planning. 

·         Register for our Year-End Planning Webinar. 

 
Links are being provided for information purposes only. The information herein is general and educational in nature and should not be considered legal or tax advice. Tax laws and regulations are complex and subject to change, which can materially impact investment results. Pearl Planning cannot guarantee that the information herein is accurate, complete, or timely. Pearl Planning makes no warranties with regard to such information or results obtained by its use and disclaims any liability arising out of your use of, or any tax position taken in reliance on, such information. Consult an attorney or tax professional regarding your specific situation. Please note, changes in tax laws or regulations may occur at any time and could substantially impact your situation. Pearl Planning financial advisors do not render

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Speaker 1:

Welcome to the Women's Money Wisdom Podcast. I'm Melissa Joy, a certified financial planner and founder of Pearl Planning. I'm Melissa Freidenberg, financial advisor. We dive deep into topics like work-life balance, financial planning, personal growth and the intricacies of the sandwich generation. Tune in for money conversations that every woman needs to have. Hello and welcome to the Women's Money Wisdom Podcast. This is Melissa Freidenberg, in the Gross Point office, and today our guest is Cass Giorsi.

Speaker 1:

Cass's work meets the intersection of science and spirituality. She has dedicated 25 years to in-depth studies in applied anatomy, semantics and functional physiology, gaining insights into the nuances of our body's intricate mechanisms, particularly as they relate to aging. Her practice integrates breath work, alignment-based movement, injury prevention and recovery, empowering clients to navigate the changes that come with time. I met Cass last week for the first time at a Gross Point Chamber event. I knew I had to have her on this podcast because what she has to offer is needed. Maybe, like me, you sometimes fight these things or think they're hokey. I'm a believer now, so I thought I need to make you guys believers as well. Welcome to the Women's Money Wisdom Podcast, Cass. Thank you, Melissa. Thank you for having me. What a pleasure. Of course, I am so fascinated by this and I hope it's okay that I admit that sometimes I'm a non-believer in this stuff, I love you All the more exciting to talk to then.

Speaker 2:

I mean, you're pulling me over onto the side, I know.

Speaker 1:

It's not even that I'm a non-believer how it relates to our bodies and stress. I know there's a relation there. It's not that I don't believe it, but I just don't understand it fully. I just kind of put it aside. Is that fair?

Speaker 2:

100%. We tend to overcomplicate these things. The wellness industry has become just that an industry. It's now been commodified and packaged and marketed and sold to us. In some ways it's spoken to us in very plain terms. In other ways it feels convoluted and hard to reach, but it's actually within reach and absolutely free, which is access to our own physical home, which is our body, the relationship to the mind. We can get into a little bit of that. I hear you when you say you're a non-believer. I love the word hokey that you used in the intro because it has who talks about someone being hokey their own guests.

Speaker 1:

I think it's hilarious.

Speaker 2:

I put on music at the end of a class or session, and it will be maybe flute based or piano, and immediately Saturday Night Live comes to mind. I just think this is ridiculous. This is an SNL skit. This is just silly.

Speaker 1:

I would not have gone on a podcast if I thought she was at all hokey. Part of what I really liked, though, is when we were both presenting at this event.

Speaker 2:

Young professionals. Very sweet, we were all under 40.

Speaker 1:

That's great, that's sweet for them. I am not under 40.

Speaker 3:

I'm not sure.

Speaker 1:

Maybe it was more like the wax on, wax off teacher type situation, but we somehow were presenting to the young babies in business. I present a lot but I still get nervous, like a good nervous energy. You admitted that you were nervous before presenting, but the way that you like inhale, took a breath and like that's so powerful to take that time and that space, and I felt like even doing the breath work as a group and kind of going through that, I felt it Like it's something that's hard to put your finger on it. So even when you practice it, you're like well, that's pretty cool. I'm a believer when I have to be a practicer.

Speaker 2:

Yes, a participant. Yes, Well, a little bit about my background. I started with movement as, like my intelligence, I believe that when we're born, we're all given a certain gift and a certain intelligence. Mine happened to come through my body, like many great performers, the dancers we think of our incredible athletes, people who just know the body in a more intuitive way, and so I kept that going my whole life and I took it for granted for a long time, until I started teaching and helping other people move their bodies, and that's when I realized that body literacy is not something that we are given necessarily naturally, nor are we taught it in school. So, although I taught in studios and was a yoga teacher for many years, I since left the practice of traditional yoga and am now more in just a practice of semantics, because the body needs a lot of different things and everyone's body is telling a different story, and a lot of people don't want to spend time there.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, we don't want to be spending a whole lot of time in our bodies. We've got things to do, our mind is really fast and we think we don't have the time. To your point, like, we get busy, we get distracted, we don't have the time to take the breath and it is, quite literally, can be as simple as that. But we, as I said earlier, like to complicate these things, and so, while I love a class and I love a space to be able to move for half hour, 45 minutes to an hour, I know that that isn't a privilege for many, many, many people. Most people don't have time. Wealth Right, we're talking about wealth. They don't have the wealth or the richness of time or the agency and how to use it.

Speaker 1:

Well, that would be the key there, because I always say I don't have time to work out. But guess what? I spent an hour and hour, 45 minutes, growing friends, that's fair. That is fair. All of a sudden I look up from my radical and I'm watching somebody put pants on Like why I have no time to work out. I have so much to be doing.

Speaker 2:

And then it's like in this modern era, the era of social media and the era of scrolling and the era of a shut down kind of system of people not really knowing how they feel and not people not being able to access how they feel, not being able to sleep, people feeling like we have an uptick and anxiety, certainly, and depression and isolation, especially among our young people. I just feel like it is my obligation to bring this down to very basic, modern terms for people, so that the people who are allergic to a yoga class and I know you're out there, guess what, you're not alone. I don't like it either. So there you go, different things.

Speaker 2:

I want to be dancing, I want to be doing jumping jacks. I want good music. I want to be maybe doing some deeper breathwork. I want stillness. We don't need to have a conversation about the benefits. I'm not trying to take anyone's yoga joy away. I'm just saying, if you don't like yoga, there is nothing wrong with you, and you don't like sitting still in meditation, there is nothing wrong with you.

Speaker 2:

What is speaking to you in that moment is your physiology. It's not your deficit, it's not your inability to sit still. It may or may not be your ADHD. It may or may not be your digestion, it may or may not be your hormones, but it's not you that's the problem there. You just haven't found what you needed in that moment, on that day, to feed the needs of whatever is speaking to you through your body.

Speaker 2:

And that's what I try to educate people on. Like I said earlier, body literacy and literally being able to read the systems in your body and what they need that day. We're not all out here trying to relax. I mean, relaxation is Wonderful and we want to be able to do it so that we can connect to our loved ones and connect to our higher power If we believe in that or connect to nature, connect to our hearts. We need to be able to get quiet, but we also, what we need to do is recover and regulate. A lot of us are out here dysregulated. We're not breaking the pattern of dysregulation because the nervous system is a system and it's likened to a scratched record, right so? Or scratch CD, depending on how old you are.

Speaker 1:

Or do they even scratch, because now they don't even know Do.

Speaker 2:

CDs even exist in here. But if you had a scratch on a CD and you listened to your favorite song and it's scratched at two minutes and 20 seconds into the song, you'd have to skip over that section. Our nervous system is the same, except we don't know how to pick up. If you're thinking about a vinyl record, you have to pick up the needle and move the needle so that you avoid the scratch. But until we pick up the needle and move it, we're just going to keep hitting the same scratch and it goes round and round. We kind of wind ourselves up, we wind ourselves down and we burn out in both directions.

Speaker 1:

In dropping off and picking up from schools. Around here people are ripping the steering wheel.

Speaker 1:

And they are like happening yesterday. So I live off of Lakeshore and I was turning and I turned and then got into lean. I didn't cut anybody off, I was very aware, but I had to turn left. I had to get out of my street and then get into the left lane and make the left. This person was driving well over the speed limit and also I gave them plenty of room and I mean he went around me, honked, gave me dirty looks. I mean this turned several times a day. It was not even a risky, I mean it was a very risky decision.

Speaker 2:

You're how close to your house to Brian.

Speaker 1:

Exactly Right. This is your neighborhood. Everybody is wound, so tight yeah, and I think women especially. Let's talk about that after COVID. You know going this whole like work from before before COVID.

Speaker 2:

Well, I feel like it's worse.

Speaker 1:

We're doing all of the things I think we went back to doing sure.

Speaker 2:

We sure have, we sure have.

Speaker 1:

Like when the kids came home from school and I think we kind of went back to like trying to have a career or a thing outside of the home, but then also like the schooling the home intending to, and the multitasking, and being all things for everybody in every place, and having all the proverbial ducks in a row and oh and the weight of the world could be not to mention the virus, among other things.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, so there's, there's more. We live in a perpetual perceived and real threat and our nervous systems are wired for detecting threats. That's what it's built to do. We're an adaptive species and you know, we, you know, went from being home and having the mysterious situation unfolding where we had very little control, if any, and having everyone under one roof and having a lot of the burden taken away from us in the sense of obligation and responsibility and supposed to use and fitting in, you know, keeping up with the Johnson's and being all things everywhere all the time, to that coming to a screeching halt all of a sudden. Now what? And if we don't pick up the needle on that scratched record and change a pattern, it's never going to change. And that's why accessibility to taking a moment, the end of that presentation.

Speaker 2:

I simply had people take four breaths through the four different pathways. That's all I did. We took about 37 seconds, right, that's all we did. And it's enough to bring the very active mind into, into an awareness of self that because the breath, the respiratory system inside the body, is essentially the remote control to the nervous system, it brings it up and it brings it down and it brings it into neutral and that does sound hokey. That's science, that's biology. That's been proven. There's research doing, happening all the time, neurologically, you know, within the physiology, with therapeutically, everywhere people are starting to really realize the importance of breathing and it sounds so precious, I myself being a cynic in my own way, but when I tell people that, when people ask me in very plain terms what I do, I say I help people feel better.

Speaker 2:

That's what I do that's just like I help you feel better, like warm and safe and comfortable, but I help you know how to feel, yeah, well, because we're really numb Again. It's not I have to calm down and go sit on my meditation and like levitate in the corner and but it's like you can sit in your car and you can be affected by that person and their anger and their anxiety and his fear and his probably. He's probably on his phone, his car is way too big, he can't hear what's going on outside of him. His mind is really loud, he's holding his breath and so he's has an activated system. He doesn't know you or anything about you. You just sees your car. You got in the way. You're the threat. He's responding to the threat of your car and of the turn that you made.

Speaker 2:

And we need to learn and to be able to differentiate and separate his you know active system and you in that moment and the only thing that can do that for you, melissa, in that moment, so that you don't carry that into wherever it is you were going next is a wedge between that experience and where you are now, and that kind of wedge comes through the body because the mind is only gonna keep going fast. It's only gonna get worked up and so the breath can come in, bypass the mind and give the system, literally the physiological system of the body, a chance to catch up with itself, regulate itself, recover itself and move on. Because if you were harried in that moment and anyone would be and you don't regulate that, you take that into your next meeting. You take that into now. All of a sudden, perhaps you're on edge and you think the checkout person at the grocery store has an attitude with you, or you think you know you've been mispresenting this whole day is going wrong Now.

Speaker 1:

We can't receive everybody.

Speaker 2:

Now everything is like what's wrong with people. How do you know this guy?

Speaker 1:

you know it's like very easy to do Like a chain reaction from all the people. Oh God, yes.

Speaker 2:

Absolutely, and we're taking other people's energy on and we're taking. And so how do we stop that? We have to. Well, the first thing is we have to become aware. We have to be aware, we have to pay attention, we have to be willing, willing participants in our own presence. If we're not willing to pay attention, to name it, to recognize, to notice, we're just swept up in a whole world of external energy and all sorts of and then you're passing on your energy to somebody else and that woo, woo.

Speaker 2:

We are energy. That is what, literally what we are made up of.

Speaker 1:

I believe in that. I do believe in that.

Speaker 2:

And you know what detects. That Is your nervous system. Your nervous system is doing that picking up of energy, feeling the good vibes you see all the t-shirts now and everybody's like good vibes only yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1:

And I'm like your good vibes come from you being willing to be with yourself in our conversation offline about aging and this whole, like the nervous system and how it ages you, and I was like, oh, shoot, like this. I feel like I run on, like I sometimes enjoy the energy of being like 100% OK, so like we all, yeah, and then I charge.

Speaker 2:

It is. There's nothing wrong with being an active, activated person. You know, there's a healthy stress that we have and sympathetic tone, which is one branch of a complicated little system called your nervous system. The sympathetic nervous system is what wakes us up, it gets us going. It gets us moving, it builds our business, it gives us. You know, it's what we need. We need it to be motivated, to be motivated exactly and to speak our, use our voice and speak up and stand up for what we believe in. We need that desperately and it's part of the fight response.

Speaker 2:

And then there's the parasympathetic, which is calm, connected. It's connected to the exhale. It's where we can downshift, it's where we can. It's also where fight and flight live, where we want to flee or we're frozen and we can't quite. We're numb, we don't really know what's going on and we're toggling between these pretty much all the time, depending on circumstance. But it's good to have both. We all have both, ok, and we need both, need both. We all have both. We want to be able to have access to both. A healthy nervous system is one that can change course quickly. It changes direction when needed to. It needs to respond to the environment. If you had been like la, la, la when that guy blew his horn and you were like da, da, da, if I was not Because you're a healthy.

Speaker 2:

You're a healthy. That's a healthy response. That's a very natural healthy response. Whoever you are, however, you are depending, of course, on our own unique stories and our relationship to the world, our relationship to our family of origin, our relationship to our younger selves and our relationship to our bodies. Currently, in order to stay in a place that feels safe and connected in a way that you can enjoy your life, we want to be able to recover from life as it's happening right. We can't wait for when I got that fill in the blank, when I have a million dollars in the bank, when I lose 10 pounds, when I find the man, when I have the car you so For next week, when my schedule's better, when my children get into college Next week, when my exactly If we're living for that we're never that day is, I'm telling you right now, it's never coming.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, there's always something.

Speaker 2:

That day is never coming. We've been sold this sort of bill of lies when your happiness is, happiness is everything. Just be happy and be positive. That is throwing everybody so far off course and it's making women, especially, burn out so fast because we are literally running, we're running, running, running and it's keeping us from having good night's sleep. It's keeping us from having orgasms. It's keeping us from being able to digest our food and use and release toxins properly. It's keeping us on the couch, scrolling and avoiding our lives. It's keeping us from just being okay with ourselves. Okay, that's so scary.

Speaker 2:

How do we fix it? No, I don't know. I know well. The first thing is just to be okay that things are not happy, happy, joy, joy all the time. That's what I'm saying. That's part of the capitalistic structure. When you have X amount of you know and this is a podcast about wisdom and wealth and money, and we love that we don't want anyone to burn out. The first step I talk with my clients. It always begins with simply being okay with what is, and most of the time, no one's cool with that. I don't, but that's why I'm here.

Speaker 2:

But to like be in just feel what it is right in this moment, because if you can let, if we can let the systems of our body catch up with each other, we can notice that we're actually not under threat. And I mean this in the perceived threat, I mean like the inbox, I mean this, the texture waiting to get back, I mean like the call from the kid's teacher right, this anticipatory anxiety that we have that if we're not careful, if we don't do things, just so that it's all gonna fall apart. Yeah, that's a perceived threat that's aging us because we are worried, we are bound up, we're contracted, we're holding our breath and we're not exhaling, and when we don't exhale we don't release carbon dioxide.

Speaker 1:

Now, again, we can try.

Speaker 2:

I feel like I'm gonna die early after talking, because I feel like that's I know, but I don't breathe.

Speaker 1:

I feel like I've always had that problem.

Speaker 2:

where I like hold my breath, I know, because we're all waiting for something to land that is going to shoot us out of whatever cannon we're waiting to be shot out of. I know we're all so nervous that something is coming for us. Nothing is coming for us, we're okay. I mean not saying that we're, not that we don't live in a scary world we do but in our private worlds of our own experience we are okay. I'm not here trying to make everybody feel happy all the time. I simply want people to feel okay. That's kind of a good goal there's. I'm like a devotee to okayness, like be okay, be pissed off, be sad, be hormonal, be hungry, be horny, be all the things you're supposed to be. Be ambitious.

Speaker 1:

Please be ambitious and be okay, now let's talk briefly mentioned hormones because for me, I do have a problem where I hold my breath, both when I exercise and just like I find myself like I'm out of breath because I haven't been breathing. If I'm doing something, like you know, work that's intense, I just have to remind myself to breathe. I'll say nine times out of 10 where I do have a day where it's like what am I doing with my life? Why have I taken on so much stuff, like I can't. This is, I'm overwhelmed because I'm caring for my mother and I'm doing everything in the home and I'm also doing this business and I will most likely get my period on those days.

Speaker 3:

Like the next day.

Speaker 1:

Like those days where I feel like it's hopeless and like so what? How can we?

Speaker 2:

obviously you could probably do a whole podcast, just a whole other conversation but there is some important information around the cycle that relates to breath work that I think we could tie into this and the nervous system that we could tie into this quickly to help educate the listeners. So you have your two, you have four weeks right and you have your luteal phase, which is the second half of your period. There's the two weeks after ovulation, right up leading to having your period, and then there's the two weeks after that where you are building back up towards ovulation Okay, and when we have more estrogen generally, it's in that building up to like the body is getting ready to be fertilized, yeah, Okay. So that's 15 minutes, 15 days in give or take.

Speaker 3:

Yes.

Speaker 2:

Okay Now, if you're a doctor listening to this, or an acupuncturist, forgive me for the basics of this.

Speaker 1:

No, we want to keep it basic.

Speaker 2:

Then in the second half, the estrogen starts to go down and progesterone starts to come up. When does the crazy happen? Well, the crazy is part of that sympathetic charge I was talking about just a moment ago. So estrogen is more parasympathetic, dominant Parasympathetic being rest, digest, relax, ease, flow. Everything's cool. I can recover quickly, I can bounce back. I'm not so pissed at my kids when I get this external stressor and progesterone and sympathetic is more charge. What the F? Come on. I'm leaving. I'm shutting this down and leaving my business. I don't have what it takes all that by keeping track of where we are in the days of our period, which I highly recommend. If you don't do that, do do that.

Speaker 1:

I need to do that. I don't want to do that anymore, but it's for your own well-being.

Speaker 2:

Just good to know where you are, because if I can count back from 28, or if I can look and see that I'm coming up to about 28 to 30 days. It's changing now that I'm in my 40s but I'm still paying attention to it. I know that that charge, that I feel that feels very real. It is real and it is real. And it is real because our nervous systems, in correlation to our hormonal endocrine system, are in conversation and our sympathetic nervous system is on high alert. It is up-regulated, high alert and we don't have anything to bring us down. And one thing that we do and can do besides the bubble baths and the massages and these sort of external self-care, is breathe out and I know that sounds like, oh, she's just telling me to exhale.

Speaker 3:

No I believe it.

Speaker 2:

It's literally breathing out, because when we can release carbon dioxide which is what we do when we breathe out we breathe out carbon dioxide. We breathe in oxygen when we breathe out carbon dioxide. Carbon dioxide is a stress molecule and it's what we release when we breathe, because we need to release the stressor in the system. The body's like get rid of this. I've used it. Now I need you to get rid of it. So that's why we breathe out. It carries oxygen to our blood and our tissues. It's an essential part of breathing and we need to get rid of it. So if we have an overbuilt up amount of CO2, hang in there with me. I'm with you, I'm hanging on this. If we're inhaling and not exhaling, if we're holding our breath and more than likely you're holding your breath in you're building CO2 in your system. It's building up because you haven't breathed out.

Speaker 3:

No, I am following you and I am agreeing that I do this.

Speaker 2:

So CO2 is high because you haven't been breathing out, and I mean literally just exhaling, dropping your ribs, exhaling before you breathe in again. That CO2 is only going to amplify the sympathetic system. It's only going to amplify. I'm not saying you're creating more hormones. I'm not saying, but you are increasing your quick agility to stress, your quick agility to get pissed quicker. We're shortening the pathway between the external stressor and your response to it.

Speaker 1:

So what days of the cycle do we want to like? Do extra breath work.

Speaker 2:

We want to be doing more like CO2 releasing, breath work. The last week of our cycle Really depends on the person, but, generally speaking, as we really are prepared to bleed and shed blood, it's in those last 20, early 20 days cycle 21, 22, 23, where we need to give ourselves a flick and break immediately and not over schedule ourselves or let the kids have mac and cheese again if that's what's needed, or pizza, or pizza, whatever it takes. Stay off your phone. Try to stay off your phone. Put on music instead. Maybe don't have anything that's going to create the down, like the depressant, of alcohol or something like that. Maybe just be more mindful of that For sure, and focus on the exhale. I love that. That's literally science. Co2 is building and we need to release it before we can breathe in again. But we talk and we breathe in, and then we get up here and everything's fine and I have it Exhale. Look at the poor breath. Yes, and I'm up here, and so are you now.

Speaker 2:

And then I have a big cry and a shower and then I'm good. And that's why crying feels good, because what is crying yes, it's exhaling Is that true.

Speaker 1:

Is that right? Is that why our body does?

Speaker 2:

that Well, it's one of the things I mean.

Speaker 1:

it's one of things.

Speaker 2:

It's a lot of. There's a lot of parts to this.

Speaker 1:

Right, but I do. I'm a believer now, but I believe in it. So I just exhale, listener exhale. I mean, even just watching you exhale makes me relax, is that weird?

Speaker 2:

My clients say that all the time.

Speaker 1:

I know, like I just do exhale, I was like I didn't even exhale, it just felt like my muscles were like.

Speaker 3:

I just want to listen to you breathe.

Speaker 1:

So, obviously, we have condensed a lot of this stuff and you have given us, like, the overview. But if somebody is listening and they want more, they want more tasks and they want to have this conversation with you, how can they reach?

Speaker 2:

you. They can reach me through Instagram. I would say that's like the modern day business card Find your midline. I love that. I work online with people. I do 30 minute sessions. I do 90 minute sessions. I do 15 minute sessions. It doesn't have to be complicated. I teach online courses, sometimes depending on the season. I don't have classes right now in person, but I'm working on that.

Speaker 2:

If somebody wanted to do like a class with a group like this, if you wanted, absolutely, if somebody felt they had access to a nice like a open space, basement or a garage or you know they're living in they just felt that they had the space for it. People have a resistance to feeling good. I think we are a little nervous to actually feel okay. But once people realize that it's at their fingertips and it's within their, their own body to have access to an easy moment, you know, it gets very exciting for people Like they really are, like, oh my God, I might actually feel like I'm in a little bit of control of my life. I might actually feel like things aren't so bad. Actually, I'm doing okay. Yeah, you know.

Speaker 2:

So it's about being able to handle stress, it's about resilience, it's about knowing how to recover. I like that. The recovery. Recovery is really big. It's really important for women especially to be able to recover, because if we don't recover, we burn out and that's like I said, that's what ages us, that's what brings us into this hyper vigilant. You like I'm not good enough, what's wrong with my face? I'm gaining weight. Like we get very hyper fixated on ourselves and we lose that beautiful window where we can be okay with ourselves, where we can actually, dare I say, like ourselves, yeah, and then, dare I say, love ourselves. There is no greater wealth, yes, there is no greater wealth than feeling okay with who you are and how you are.

Speaker 1:

And you know whether it's even more even keel myself included in work life, home life, everything. Almost every business woman, client of mine and people in my networking groups. That's what everybody wants right now. That's what they need. They need what you're speaking about. So if you're listening and you are thinking about a corporate retreat or you don't just want somebody to come in and work with your employees and give them some of this magic, I'm going to call it magic. I went from Hoaxie to Matt In one podcast there we go.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, seema sold me Converted. I think maybe this has like a pearl planning. We have our annual retreat. I'll have to talk to Melissa Joy about it, but I definitely think there's something to it, so go to her website, findyourmidlinecom. It will be linked in the show notes. Thank you so much for sharing your wisdom with us, cass. What an honor.

Speaker 2:

My pleasure.

Speaker 3:

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Melissa Joy, CFP

Co-host