Episode: 342 Understanding Your Money Behavior: How Identity Drives Financial Decisions with Hugh Massie

Melissa Joy, CFP® sits down with Hugh Massie, founder of DNA Behavior International, to explore how our natural, hardwired behavior shapes the way we make financial decisions, especially under pressure. 

Hugh traces his path from CPA to behavioral pioneer, explaining how a simple observation, that people revert to their instinctive behavior when money puts them under stress, led him to build an objective measurement system now used in more than 125 countries. 

Together, Melissa and Hugh unpack why a strengths-based conversation, rather than a deficit-based one, keeps clients empowered and engaged, and why understanding a person's struggles (their strengths overplayed) is just as important as celebrating their talents.

The conversation turns to couples and money, where Hugh shares how opposite behavioral styles often attract each other in early marriages, and how an advisor can serve as a bridge that helps both partners feel heard rather than sidelined. Hugh also introduces DNA Behavior's assessment tools, including the newly launched GoDNA.ai, and explains how identity, not just strategy, is the foundation every sound financial decision should flow from.

What You'll Learn

• Why people revert to their natural, instinctive behavior when money puts them under pressure
• The difference between a strengths-based financial planning conversation and a deficit-based one, and why it keeps clients empowered
• Why understanding a client's “struggles” (strengths overplayed) matters as much as celebrating their strengths
• How identity, not just goals or strategy, is the foundation every financial decision should flow from
• Why couples often marry someone with an opposite behavioral style, and how that shows up in money decisions
• How an advisor can act as a neutral bridge that helps both partners in a relationship feel heard
• How DNA Behavior's assessment tools, including the new GoDNA.ai platform, measure natural behavior in minutes

About Hugh Massie

Hugh Massie is the Founder and Executive Chairman of DNA Behavior International, “The Behavior and Money Insights Company,” which he founded in 2001 after beginning his career as a CPA and wealth manager in Sydney, Australia. Now based in Atlanta, Hugh has spent more than two decades building behavioral assessment tools that measure people's natural, hardwired behavior, work that today reaches individuals and organizations in more than 125 countries. He is the author of several books, including Financial DNA: Discovering Your Unique Financial Personality for a Quality Life, and is also the co-founder of Boys Without Fathers, a nonprofit mentoring organization.

Website: https://www.dnabehavior.com

Try GoDNA: https://www.godna.ai

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/hughmassie/

The previous presentation by PEARL PLANNING was intended for general information purposes only.  No portion of the presentation serves as the receipt of, or as a substitute for, personalized investment advice from PEARL PLANNING or any other investment professional of your choosing. Different types of investments involve varying degrees of risk, and it should not be assumed that future performance of any specific investment or investment strategy, or any non-investment related or planning services, discussion or content, will be profitable, be suitable for your portfolio or individual situation, or prove successful. Neither PEARL PLANNING’s investment adviser registration status, nor any amount of prior experience or success, should be construed that a certain level of results or satisfaction will be achieved if PEARL PLANNING is engaged, or continues to be engaged, to provide investment advisory services. PEARL PLANNING is neither a law firm nor accounting firm, and no portion of its services should be construed as legal or accounting advice. No portion of the video content should be construed by a client or prospective client as a guarantee that he/she will experience a certain level of results if PEARL PLANNING is engaged, or continues to be engaged, to provide investment advisory services. A copy of PEARL PLANNING’s current written disclosure Brochure discussing our advisory services and fees is available upon request or at https...

Transcript

Copy Transcript Copied

Welcome And Guest Introduction

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Welcome to the Women's Money Wisdom Podcast. I'm Melissa Joy, a certified financial planner and the founder of Perl Planning. My goal is to help you streamline and organize your finances, navigate big money decisions with confidence, and be strategic in order to grow your wealth. As a woman, you work hard for your money, and I'm here to help you make the most of it. Now let's get into the show welcome back to the Women's Money Wisdom podcast. We so often talk about how your mind, your psychology interacts with your financial decisions and your money. And today is no exception. I have an exceptional expert here today, Hugh Massey. He is the founder of DNA Behavior International, the Behavior and Money Insights Company, which now serves individuals and organizations in over 125 countries. Hugh, welcome to the podcast.

SPEAKER_04 1:03

Yeah, great to be with you, Melissa.

SPEAKER_01 1:05

Well, I'm so glad we got a chance to sit down. One of the things that I think we'll touch on in this conversation is how just the fundamentals of behavioral psychology, but also how that is changing in an increasingly wired and artificial intelligence world. But I want to start with kind of the foundations. If you can just give us an introduction and a little bit about your background of how you become such a go-to source on how people think and how that matters with their money.

From CPA To Behavioral Insight

SPEAKER_04 1:36

Well, my different journey to this place and to having the conversation with you today, Melissa, is a little different in that I started life as a CPA, and you can tell from my great accent, I'm from Australia, just so that the mystery goes out. But I I live today in Atlanta. I've been here for 20 plus years. Susan Bradley, who you mentioned before, was one of the first people that I ever met in the wealth management profession when I was still in the commuting phase from coming over from Sydney in about 2002.

SPEAKER_01 2:12

Yeah, Susan is a pioneer in um sudden money and just the kind of the neuropsych of money and transition planning, um, but somebody who I learned a lot from earlier in my career.

SPEAKER_04 2:25

And and so, you know, I started life as a CPA, and when I decided that I was uh done with working in a large account accountancy firm, and what would I do? I had a I had a goal of setting up a wealth management family office type business. But to provide a personalized experience that I didn't think private banks could were were providing or could provide, and wealth managers weren't. And and and and you know, to put that in context, this is in the in the uh in the 1990s, in the in the later part of the 1990s.

SPEAKER_01 3:04

That's when I started my career. So I actually can remember back to those days. Yeah, long time ago.

SPEAKER_04 3:10

In some ways, it doesn't seem that long ago, but it's it's it's it's it's actually quite a long time.

SPEAKER_03 3:15

And I didn't change.

SPEAKER_04 3:17

Yeah, and I didn't have any tools or systems at that time, but I but I as I reflected, what I was doing was when I was providing tax advice, I was customizing how that advice was presented to different people. So some people, you know, in the same organization would get a two-page letter with a diagram, and others would get the 50-page book, and there'd be something in between. And and and, you know, because not everybody wants to read the whole story, but they'd need to get the point. And and and and what do I need to do? But others want to know how you got there. And and I think that's true with financial plans. You know, there would be financial planners out there that provide the 100-page book, and you think, gee, all that's detailed and that's good, but what does it all mean? And some are just never going to read that, right? And in fact, and and and and but there, but one one one person in the household might, and and another person in in the household definitely won't, right? If if if if if opposites have married each other, which is the normal thing. So as and then one day I'm asked the question, well, Hugh, what are you really passionate about? And and I I just said, I want to help people all over the world become financially self-empowered. And Melissa, as I started to reflect on what did that mean, I knew if that came out of my subconscious, that meant something, and I needed to do something with it. And so I started looking at my day journal, and I've been writing about human behavior for about three years. And I had this theory that people under pressure revert to their natural instinctive behavior. So, what the person you meet in the first planning meeting may not be the same person that you see when they're under pressure.

Pressure Reveals Your Money Instincts

SPEAKER_04 5:04

And money in relationships put us under pressure. And I realize that all this tied back to behavior, that people have a natural, hardwired behavior. And if I could understand what that is objectively, not just people telling me what it is, but objectively understand it through measurement, I would be able to provide the personalized experience, but also then be able to build a long-term plan for people. Because I think that this is the behavior that shows up over the long term. But also understand a person's talents. What creates wealth is how you use your talents and capitalize on those. And, you know, it's what you do every day and how you uh uh put that to action. Then it's about how do you make good decisions. That's understanding financial behavior and all the decision-making biases that we've been hearing about, you know, in the in the wealth management world, you know, really coming from Daniel Carneman, a lot of it, but not only him, others, you know, the the world has proliferated. And then how do you manage stress? And and stress come a lot of stress for people comes from money. And stress comes from working in the wrong roles, right? Doing the wrong, you know, being in the wrong place, misaligned with who you are. All those things cause stress. So I've sort of felt like if I could conquer that, then I could help people build, today I would put it, more human lifetime economic value. And and and that means create more wealth, protect it, and live for longer.

SPEAKER_01 6:41

Right. That stress part, I'm assuming, is part of that live for longer. If you can lower the stress, yeah. It optimizes your health.

SPEAKER_04 6:50

Right. Stress is what accelerates aging. Stress causes us to eat the wrong things, not exercise, uh, and cognitively not make very good decisions. And and and so, you know, that's the story. Now, remember, 25 years ago when I started this journey, I couldn't say all of those words, just like I just said it now.

SPEAKER_01 7:14

Behavioral finance was like maybe first being mentioned in the Kahneman part of the world, not in the day-to-day personal finance part of the world.

SPEAKER_04 7:25

Kahneman, Kahneman got his Nobel Prize in 2002. We'd already built in by 2001 the first iteration of a system that measured a whole lot of these behaviors. But I think he put the conversation on the map from a research perspective. And it's a foundation, you know, talking about prospect theory and loss aversion, um, you know, and other biases that that come off it. A lot of the biases are in uh are are all interrelated. But, you know, where I was was we need to understand the whole person and be able to measure it, not just talk about it. But we need, you know, if if you're to create transformation, and and that's really what I've

Strengths First Without Shame

SPEAKER_04 8:10

been about. And I think that, you know, as far as the audience today, is really helping people with self-awareness, getting more understanding of what your strengths are, which is what you can go and then be great at in life. But what are also the struggles, which are the strengths overplayed? I think people forget this, you know, that we can have a strengths-based conversation, but what are your struggles? And those struggles, if you're not aware of them, can be a weakness. They can lead to the decision biases and what what might get you into trouble under pressure.

SPEAKER_01 8:47

Well, I love that you're talking about both strengths as well as struggles, bias, CEs, blind spots, because I think so many people think they're hiring a financial planner to only talk about their weaknesses. And one of the things I think is my job is to tell you where you're doing a great job. And if you can play two strengths, um, you know, whether it's that you're a great saver or, you know, if you're risk averse, you're not impulsive. You're not, you know, like if you can play to the strengths while expanding the opportunity set or limiting the biases or the weak spots, then, you know, that is that is a job done right. And for so many people thinking about it, I I encourage you to open your mind to acknowledging your strengths.

SPEAKER_04 9:33

I think that if if you know, if it was me going to a wealth manager, and I have been to a wealth manager and go to, you know, well, you know, advisors and wealth managers, and the wealth manager started saying, Well, you know, Hugh, this is who you are, and this is what I see, and that you're really weak at ABCD, and and why are you making those decisions? I'd I'd feel pretty disempowered. And small, yeah. And small, and then and then when that's followed up with um being told in a fairly singular way that you need to have X solution, right? With for me, no options provided, I'm gonna be out the door. And I think this was what you've just set up, Melissa, whether you intended to or not, was why I wanted to do DNA behavior, because this was the problem that I was experiencing myself in going to private banks and other advisors that that that that in a way you are being put in the corner. Um and and whereas it's a more empowering conversation if you start with the strengths. Now, what happens when you start with the strengths is let's say for me, it's actually risk taking. And I'm reasonably good at saving, but if it's risk taking, well, what are the strengths of that? How's that helped you? What is how's that brought out? Where's your best decisions by taking risks? But also you could ask the question, okay, where's that not work for you? Right? Because it does at some point it doesn't. And that then gets to the crux of the conversation, but you've kept me empowered. Now I'm talking about all these things that I've done taking risks, but here are a few screw-ups too, right? And and and that's a a much better conversation. And and automatically you as the advisor have have figured out what's going on.

SPEAKER_01 11:26

Well, it also occurs to be that it keeps your identity in the conversation, you like who you are, and so you don't have to seed what makes you you to the system that the you know, whatever the wealth manager, the private banker is is putting you in.

SPEAKER_04 11:43

So I don't know who's been training you, Melissa, but you have absolutely um nailed

Identity As The Source Of Decisions

SPEAKER_04 11:50

it. I did this is all about identity. And I think that what we are really wanting to do is get people to be aligned to their to their identity. And I and I look at identity as being uh that higher place of how you want to be seen in the world and how you're gonna hold yourself accountable out there in the world. And if you get your identity right, every decision flows from there. When you have a lack of clarity from identity with your identity, you will be chopping and changing decisions. It's in life, relationships, and with your money, it's a nightmare for the advisor, it's a nightmare for your financial plan, for your life partner, um, your family, your kids, whatever is going on, it doesn't work. Getting clarity of your identity is really important. And that's more than just, okay, my purpose is X.

SPEAKER_01 12:43

Right.

SPEAKER_04 12:44

It's a little more than that. It's also knowing what your X factor is. What is the thing that you can be great at?

SPEAKER_01 12:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 12:52

And show up in the world on that. And that's where the strengths-based conversation's important, but a strength-based conversation with never addressing the struggles is a problem because you can overplay those strengths, and that's where you crash the truck somewhere, you know? And um that's you know, I I I think that's the that's the framework, and that's what's driven me and kept me very passionate.

SPEAKER_01 13:19

As it would. Right. It's not a that's what keeps my job different every day, right? Is that meeting someone where they're at and where they where they need things, and then adding in many engagements uh two people to the conversation because there aren't many families that have a shared identity that can, you know, kind of trumps the individual um what they take individually as

Couples Money Dynamics And Being Heard

SPEAKER_01 13:48

well.

SPEAKER_04 13:48

Yeah, and and I think that in in in in the wealth management that um both both partners have got to be heard. And and it's easy for one of them to be heard more because they talk more or they are just naturally in the limelight, they're the one that is warmer and easier to meet and greet, and all that type of thing, and they and they start, you know, they start saying things, and the more reserved person is quiet, or there's some role-playing going on between between partners where it's been you know determined or not determined, but but that's just what happens that one person sort of speaks up because it's money.

SPEAKER_01 14:34

Yeah. They they own the money and the money role in the relationship sometimes.

SPEAKER_04 14:40

Yeah, and and and and you know, that that's very problematic because sometimes the money, you know, one's got to understand where the money came from. And and and the money isn't always coming from the person that talked, right? Um, you know, I had a I had a married couple once who, you know, they were in their 60s, probably at that time, maybe 70, uh, who were friends of um who were the parents of of of some friends of a friend of mine. And it was the father taking taking charge, right? The male taking charge, as you could imagine would happen in in many cases. But all the money came from the from the from the mother's side. And then they had a business in between and a farm and varying other things. But she fought to be heard. And and and and and and you know, I knew though, because of the behavioral training and the work that I had embarked on, this was the early stages of doing uh DNA behavior and financial DNA, is that I had to get her to speak up and be her own voice in the conversation. And what did she want for the estate planning? It's not just him making an assumption, right?

SPEAKER_03 15:58

Right.

SPEAKER_04 15:59

Um and that's part of the art of it. But but in some cases as well, Melissa, and you would have seen it, it's actually the the the woman is the more dominant player put into Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 16:09

Like there's no there's some like uh age-old presumption about who's kind of running the show, but I see all sorts of combinations, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 16:19

And when when both are not heard, you will get uh uh you will get a syndrome that happens five years, ten years down the track where it explodes. Um because if one's not heard, it's not just about the money issues, it's about not being heard as a person.

SPEAKER_03 16:38

Right.

SPEAKER_04 16:38

It'll manifest itself in the money, and and that's and that's a problem. And so this

Advisers As Bridges Not Judges

SPEAKER_04 16:44

is where I've always been big on if all you understand out of this is how to communicate with people better and and and and and bring each person out in their in the way and they want to be communicated with, then you can win. For some, it is talking and having feelings understood. For others, they do want the hundred-page report and want to go home and reflect and read and research, right?

SPEAKER_03 17:09

Right.

SPEAKER_04 17:10

You gotta you've got to provide space for all of that um to go on. Um so true.

SPEAKER_01 17:17

And I think like one of the things for our listeners, you know, we're having a very professional to professional discussion is like, do you see this in your financial life? Are there gaps that you're missing? Are there uh professional engagements, whether it's you know, banking, lending, insurance, uh, you know, can be all sorts of different professional engagements where it's missing. Um, where, you know, you need to readdress, like, hey, there's two people in the room, or we really, you know, we're we're jumping to conclusions without getting, you know, through the strings or without our identity being acknowledged.

SPEAKER_04 17:53

I I think this same conversation we're having today, Melissa, I think this is what you're pointing out, is could happen if you're sitting in front of an insurance agent.

SPEAKER_02 18:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 18:01

Um uh a lawyer or an attorney of some sort of a lot of it.

SPEAKER_01 18:06

Yeah, an estate planner or yeah.

SPEAKER_04 18:08

Yeah, or or there's some more serious matter that you're dealing with. And it uh the accountant. Uh any person that you're in front of, this this the the the types of situations we're talking about, uh this can happen.

SPEAKER_03 18:24

For sure.

SPEAKER_04 18:24

And it be an issue. Uh it's just that you are a far more evolved uh wealth manager than most who understand. Well, I I'm I'm not everybody understands the importance of identity. And and is

The DNA Behavior Tools And AI

SPEAKER_04 18:40

paying some will just some will will give lip service, but actually really understanding it is important.

SPEAKER_01 18:49

I mean, you still can bring in your own subjective biases, you know, into conversations, but it's it's easier over time, I think. This is my theory, versus, you know, now I'm training a new generation of planners to do the same. And I I once had a discussion with my husband talking, you know, generically about a client situation where they were spending money on something that he wouldn't value himself. And he was like, why didn't you tell them not to? And I was like, that's not my job. They weren't gonna harm themselves. And this is something that was important to them and fit their values. And um, it it occurred to me that like the career growth I'd had to not, you know, to realize that I need to objectively like remove my biases or my subjective, you know, kind of what would otherwise be judgment, maybe in a personal engagement that was, you know, just never less present or not present or or overridden. Um, so it's so interesting. Um, but I I want our listeners to hear that that's possible and and and should be what you get from professional engagements.

SPEAKER_04 19:56

Yeah, I think it that the the that the professional engagement has as at, you know, if it's going to be truly client-centered, has got to be around the client. And just and that could be the client couple. And and just because, you know, what you're seeking to do and what your goals and objectives are and the way you want to live is different to somebody else, doesn't mean um you should be brought back to the center or the standard of somebody else. It's about you and and what your values are, and and everybody's got a different earning capacity, belief systems, uh, monies comes from different places and in in in you know settings. Uh and so no, in in in in in a way with personalization, you can't compare two people uh together. Now, if you feel someone's off track, I think as the as the advisor facilitator, I'm a big believer in the castalt uh approach of sharing a story, right? This is some of my experiences that I've had, right? Yeah, and what I've seen, and allow people to think about that, as opposed to actually telling them you're an um and and and you know, for some then it it could be

Using Profiles To Build Trust

SPEAKER_04 21:15

well, let me model it out for you, and and then you can you can you can decide. And that's what it is. And and and and and uh you know, I think that's something that's really important for advisors to be able to do rather than imposing their will amically right.

SPEAKER_01 21:38

And you know, having those discussions of you know, I have a professional obligation to help to advise you in what I think is in your best interest, but you're and you're in charge though. So this is a consultation, not a you know, doctrine or a set an order. And um yeah, it's so interesting when there is you know. Kind of a conflict between what you want to do as your current self versus what the impact that might have on your future self. Um yeah, and it's when that comes up.

SPEAKER_04 22:10

Yeah, and I think it's one of the things that you're probably alluding to there, or w we will cover off is when there's a difference between the two people sitting in front of you, you know. So the difference between a husband and wife, life partners with family members, and and understanding that, because everybody's had a different journey to how they got to to to this place, and it's not unusual uh for particularly people in their first marriage who got married what I call somewhat younger, right to be opposite. And if you're opposite in basically your overall talents, DNA style, if you want to call it that, you will generally have opposite perspectives

Where To Learn More And Closing

SPEAKER_04 23:00

on how money should get dealt with, uh in unless there's been some life experience otherwise.

SPEAKER_03 23:07

Right.

SPEAKER_04 23:08

But and and so if I put it more as let's say one's an engineer who's very methodical, highly structured, detailed, wants to know what's behind everything, wants to read the hundred percent page research reports, that's his style.

SPEAKER_01 23:25

Right. Living in Michigan, where you know the automotive industry and there's a lot of engineers.

SPEAKER_04 23:33

I'm sure there are, but there's a lot of people that are opposite to that too, right?

SPEAKER_03 23:38

Right.

SPEAKER_04 23:38

And and the and the female could be the engineer, it doesn't matter which, but but but they but but they could well, if they got married, get married younger in life, you know, marry somebody that's opposite to that, a bit more fun, bubbly. They're the ones organizing the social calendar. They're out and about out there, they're looking after the kids, and there's naturally more spending that comes with all those things. Is it wrong? No. It's it's a matter of how's a couple going to build the bridge with that.

SPEAKER_01 24:11

Right. But I'm glad you said bridge, because one of um one of the pieces of advice I got from a very esteemed um uh pioneer of financial planning was that the role of the professional, the the financial planner was to be a bridge between the two partners in a relationship. Um, so that they can see each other and be also be heard in a safe, you know, kind of constructive, not safe, like, you know, in just a space that is kind of mediated or moderated.

SPEAKER_04 24:43

Yeah, I I think that the the advisor, most cases, doesn't want to become a marriage counselor or a relationship counselor, but they are a neutral person in the room, a facilitator that might be able to see the perspectives of each and help each be able to see the different perspectives and celebrate it. And and and I think my my focus on having people complete the DNA discovery online is to level set that for the the couple to to complete their own discovery and now see the readout for each of them and realize, okay, that's why he I can see now why he's an engineer and behaves this way and does A B C D and what some of the motivations are. And that's actually what I love about the person, right? Even though, even though there's a day, there's days where that gets overplayed and it upsets me or annoys me, right? Or the the tone of voice is not right. And and then and then he sees that for for her. And now if you get a level setting on each other, and it's really what I call understand, accept, and respect, that becomes the bridge. And and if you've got that, then lots of things can be achieved.

SPEAKER_01 26:04

Well, let's talk about the tools for a minute. Um, so you developed um ways to kind of describe people what the DNA DNA International did. And then so give me a little foundation of what you're able to do. And then also I would love to hear how you've adapt it's adapting is as technology and AI are kind of off to the races and changing as well.

SPEAKER_04 26:31

So this this will probably sound uh hardcore for some people. Um but that but what what what we built was you know the DNA natural behavior discovery is our core tool built, you know, it's basically been designed to uncover someone's natural instinctive behavior. So we designed 40 originally designed 46 questions that are choosing between three single words. And like, are you aspiring, patient, or detailed? You select most like and least like on those three words, and you do that 46 times. Believe it or not, it takes 10 and a half minutes on average for people to complete. It's pretty quick. It's not situational bias. We're not asking, you know, oh, your mother uh uh died last week and left you an inheritance. Would you do ABCD?

SPEAKER_01 27:26

Right.

SPEAKER_04 27:27

Not asking those sorts of questions, which are actually very difficult to uh to to um answer, and your answer to that will change depending on your mood, feelings, which way the wind's blowing, whether you had a market is that year, yeah. Whatever. Those questions they have a role, but it doesn't get to natural hardwired behavior. And and and actually now what we've done recently, Melissa, is we've re-engineered the system so that you actually really only have to complete 17 of those questions and we know the truth rather than at 97%, we know it at 94%. Well, I think 94% accuracy on this, take three minutes to answer 17 questions is pretty easy. Um, and and with then we've got all these insights on you know whether you do take risks or your pre-disposition to taking risks, setting goals, um, saving, um, how you want to manage money, um, how you want to be communicated with, what you what you prefer to do at work, all those things, what causes you stress. We've got all that identified. Um, in pretty user-friendly uh reporting and insights. How do you match up with the other person? So you would start to see, gee, as the advisor, I'm really different to this partner in the client relationship and similar to this one. I'm gonna need to adapt here, and that's how I'm gonna build the bridge that you're talking about. And so that's what we've done, but it's remember, it's to be client-centered, so it's about the client, and then you've done it as well. So then you've you and you're a strategist, and I'm pretty similar in that sense. We've got adapting to do with certain people, right? Um and doesn't matter how evolved you are, you've always got adapting to do.

SPEAKER_03 29:14

And absolutely.

SPEAKER_04 29:16

And I think it doesn't mean matter how experienced you are at dealing with people, everyone's got a blind spot. So why not just take that out of the equation and keep it objective and simple? So our main system is what I've just described. But what we've what we've done starting this July is we launched a simpler system called Go DNA. As you can see that go DNA.ai, where you only have to answer the 17 questions. And then the rest can be done actually by digital scanning, uh, what we call a digital scan, where where we've built enough metrics now that we we can, if we know your name and where you work and your role, we can go and review a whole lot of information and build a profile from that, at least to start the conversation.

SPEAKER_03 30:05

Interesting.

SPEAKER_04 30:07

So that's uh what we're doing. And that makes it less confrontational. It's easy to get going. But I would always say that if you're going to make high stakes, life decisions, um, you know, changing jobs, um, a big amount of money's come in, uh you're worried about your children, whatever it is, then then complete the the full profile would be better. Um and go from that. But so there's like ways to get into the game here, and there's the sort of more I call formalized process. And it's a matter of how much information. Well, all the information is the same. It's just a matter of how much of it do you want and and and how much effort are you prepared to put in.

SPEAKER_01 30:52

So interesting. I think like one of the great uh points of this conversation is that there are tools to assist you in adapting, understanding each other. But also, um, in addition to tools, you know, you're describing kind of what makes people tick. You know, we're coming to you because I'm concerned about this, or it's really important that my family is taken care of. And, you know, one of the whether it's responding to, you know, questions that your advisor puts in front of you or um, you know, just a conversation, it's really helpful if you work with someone that you feel comfortable enough to share, you know, things that might otherwise feel vulnerable or or do feel vulnerable. Um, it really helps um to have an engagement where you can trust to be vulnerable. And then you can get just better results of, you know, kind of the advice you're getting is meeting your needs.

SPEAKER_04 31:51

Yeah, and I I found that the the the key with the profiles is while people, you know, it it it for some it it sort of sounds awkward. It's no different to completing a questionnaire and telling you, telling you as the advisor through the fact find how much money you've got and where they where where all the or at the doctor's office, you know, what's your you know, like what's your pre-costing condition? You're already providing more invasive information than this to uh uh uh already. So so to do this and then and then for you to know, okay, and even the couple, let's just talk about our strengths. The rest takes care of itself very quickly. And no one is judged, right? There is no right or wrong answer. No one's judged when you when you do that, and and and that allows more things to get unlocked, more sharing to go on. And and I think that for someone like you, Melissa, who's on top of your game, you're gonna know this is the question I should be asking this couple that will really help them when they when they get that aha moment out of it.

SPEAKER_01 33:00

Well, for people who are inspired and curious about their work, where can they follow you or or learn more?

SPEAKER_04 33:06

So you can go to you can find me in LinkedIn, Hugh Massey in Atlanta, in and I'm on LinkedIn. There's lots of information there. Our website at dnabehavior.com. But if you want to, you know, start learning these insights for yourself and and and and for everybody around you in your in your life ecosystem, whether you know whatever you work you do, then go to go dna.ai and and and at least try it out. It's free. You can try it out for free and and and go from there. But there's lots of materials on our website if you want to read more about it.

SPEAKER_01 33:42

Fascinating. I love the work that you've always been doing and how you're adapting it and as as the world changes as well. Um, thanks so much for the time and sit down today.

SPEAKER_04 33:52

It's a pleasure, Melissa. I really enjoyed it.

SPEAKER_00 34:04

Thank you for listening to the Women's Money Wisdom podcast. If you found value in this episode, the best way that you can support the podcast is to forward an episode to a friend or leave a review. Go to ProPlan.com and the podcast link to get all the resources and links mentioned. This presentation by Pro Planning is intended for general information purposes only. No portion of this presentation serves as the receipt of or substitute for personal investment advice from ProPlanning or any other investment professional of your choosing. Copies of Pro Planning's current rent and disclosure brochure and from CRS discussing our advisory services and fees are available upon request or on our website platform at PerlPlan.com. The information that we share is meant to educate and inspire, not serve as personalized financial advice. Everyone's situation is unique, so be sure to consult with your own financial professional for guidance that fits your life. And just so you know, the opinions shared in this podcast are Melissa's own and those of her guests. They don't necessarily represent any organizations with which Melissa is affiliated. For more important disclosures, please go to our webpage at proplan.com.